Question Matching the length of a note/vowel to the song you are covering?

[twenty7]

Okay, forgive me if this is the wrong place to post this question thread.

So I'm currently trying to make a vsq(?) of a song and I managed to fill in the notes. My current problem is, having no experience with music and making a vsq or anything, I'm stumped on how I'm supposed to figure out how long each note is supposed to be, and how to go about making it match 1:1 with the original song?

I tried to just, playback the original song and see when each sound would start and end as a reference point, and match my notes that I input in Piapro to be the same, but it just wasn't working out... How do you guys do it? Is there a technique? A streamlined process specifically for seeing how long each note should be? I just want my notes to match the instrumentals.

Bad with words, so again if it doesn't make sense then apologies...

 

[Alphonse]

I just listen to where the notes start for every note, except the last note in a line, where I will also listen closely to where the note ends.

 

[twenty7]

I just listen to where the notes start for every note, except the last note in a line, where I will also listen closely to where the note ends.

This is what I tried to do, but for some reason I still couldn't get my notes to match up with the original song. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong...

I think I was using the bars timebase(?) as a reference point because that's the timebase that Piapro uses. Not sure if that's where I'm going wrong. T.T

 

[Alphonse]

Did you match the BPM first?

 

[twenty7]

Did you match the BPM first?

Yeah I made sure that the tempo and everything else that can be matched was the same.

 

[parallax_fifths]

You wrote that you're an absolute beginner, so maybe you're just unaware of basic note length possibilities? I wonder this because you also wrote that you're using the bars as a reference point, which is good place to start, but many notes will fall inbetween the bars.

My apologies if you already know this, but to summarize basic note lengths, they're always multiples of two: one whole-note equals two half-notes, one half-note equals two eighth-notes, and one eighth-note equals two-sixteenth notes.

In the context of 4/4 music (which is probably, but not necessarily, the time signature of the song your working on), that's four quarter-notes, or two half-notes, or one whole-note per bar/measure. Going smaller would be eight eighth-notes or sixteen-sixteenth notes per bar/measure.

With the above in mind, it might make it easier to locate where the notes begin and end.

Be aware that other types of note lengths exist, such as dotted notes, tied notes, and triplet/quintuplet/etc. notes. Nevertheless, the basic lengths should get you headed down the correct path, assuming you already didn't know this.

 

[lIlI]

In terms of streamlined processes, I personally use an audio-to-midi convertor then clean up the end result. I've found if the acapella is clean, the timing will be 90% accurate, which saves a huge amount of labour. As you say, it's very difficult to judge timing by ear, especially with no ear training or musical knowledge.

One area of theory that's useful to understand is the relationship between your drum beat and the stressed syllables of words. The basic principle is stressed syllables will normally fall on strong beats. Knowing the drum pattern will therefore give you clues as to where syllables should start, and why they may sound 'wrong'. The more you know about drum rhythms and prosody, the less guesswork will be involved!

 

[Alphonse]

Yeah I made sure that the tempo and everything else that can be matched was the same.

Does that include shifting the original song to ensure the measures line up? Sometimes the file may have a little bit of space at the start, and you have to move the whole thing over to start where the beat is in your program.

 

[parallax_fifths]

I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps a "snap-to-grid" function is set to only quarter-notes or something. Accurate note entry would definitely be tricky if start/end point possibilities are too limited.

 

[Vector]

If you're comparing against the original song imported into your DAW, there are many things that can go wrong first.

The file may not be aligned to the grid. It may start with "pick-up notes" (a fraction of a bar with leading space). You need to zoom in and listen/watch to ensure that things that you know are strong notes (1 and 2 in a 4/4) happen in the right place, right on time. If something's off, you might need to first try shifting the clip left or right until they consistently do.

If it still seems to be drifting, it could be that your DAW is actually changing the playback speed of the clip. e.g. if you imported the audio with the DAW set to 120 bpm and then changed it to 124, it will helpfully speed up the audio to match...helpful in most cases, but not this one. You may need to drag it in after the BPM change, or see if you can change options on the clip to set the BPM it's tagged with to the correct one.

Here's a good video on trying to line notes up by ear. It's in the context of writing a backing piece to match the rhythm of an a capella, but the principle is the same. It may also be easier to do this with a piano or synth sound on a track in the DAW, and import the MIDI to Piapro later.


It's not something I do often, because I usually buy sheet music and transcribe it when I do covers. I rarely have audio clips to work with, and am fully MIDI.

 

[twenty7]

You wrote that you're an absolute beginner, so maybe you're just unaware of basic note length possibilities? I wonder this because you also wrote that you're using the bars as a reference point, which is good place to start, but many notes will fall inbetween the bars.

My apologies if you already know this, but to summarize basic note lengths, they're always multiples of two: one whole-note equals two half-notes, one half-note equals two eighth-notes, and one eighth-note equals two-sixteenth notes.

In the context of 4/4 music (which is probably, but not necessarily, the time signature of the song your working on), that's four quarter-notes, or two half-notes, or one whole-note per bar/measure. Going smaller would be eight eighth-notes or sixteen-sixteenth notes per bar/measure.

With the above in mind, it might make it easier to locate where the notes begin and end.

Be aware that other types of note lengths exist, such as dotted notes, tied notes, and triplet/quintuplet/etc. notes. Nevertheless, the basic lengths should get you headed down the correct path, assuming you already didn't know this.

Wow that sounds complicated for a newbie like me. But I think I understand the talk about the note lengths/time signature in relation to the bar or measure. I'll try to keep this in mind.

I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps a "snap-to-grid" function is set to only quarter-notes or something. Accurate note entry would definitely be tricky if start/end point possibilities are too limited.

I *think* in Piapro, the snap is set to only quarter notes. But there is a toggle for "Set snap value to triplets"? Or you can turn off snap entirely but that makes it hard to get all the notes totally equal in length. Would setting the snap value to triplets make the start and end point possibilities wider?

 

[twenty7]

In terms of streamlined processes, I personally use an audio-to-midi convertor then clean up the end result. I've found if the acapella is clean, the timing will be 90% accurate, which saves a huge amount of labour. As you say, it's very difficult to judge timing by ear, especially with no ear training or musical knowledge.

One area of theory that's useful to understand is the relationship between your drum beat and the stressed syllables of words. The basic principle is stressed syllables will normally fall on strong beats. Knowing the drum pattern will therefore give you clues as to where syllables should start, and why they may sound 'wrong'. The more you know about drum rhythms and prosody, the less guesswork will be involved!

I see, I never really knew where to start when it came to music theory so all of this is super new to me. Would the stuff about the drum beat also apply to songs without drum presence?

 

[twenty7]

Does that include shifting the original song to ensure the measures line up? Sometimes the file may have a little bit of space at the start, and you have to move the whole thing over to start where the beat is in your program.

If you're comparing against the original song imported into your DAW, there are many things that can go wrong first.

The file may not be aligned to the grid. It may start with "pick-up notes" (a fraction of a bar with leading space). You need to zoom in and listen/watch to ensure that things that you know are strong notes (1 and 2 in a 4/4) happen in the right place, right on time. If something's off, you might need to first try shifting the clip left or right until they consistently do.

If it still seems to be drifting, it could be that your DAW is actually changing the playback speed of the clip. e.g. if you imported the audio with the DAW set to 120 bpm and then changed it to 124, it will helpfully speed up the audio to match...helpful in most cases, but not this one. You may need to drag it in after the BPM change, or see if you can change options on the clip to set the BPM it's tagged with to the correct one.

Here's a good video on trying to line notes up by ear. It's in the context of writing a backing piece to match the rhythm of an a capella, but the principle is the same. It may also be easier to do this with a piano or synth sound on a track in the DAW, and import the MIDI to Piapro later.

It's not something I do often, because I usually buy sheet music and transcribe it when I do covers. I rarely have audio clips to work with, and am fully MIDI.

Ahh, I see. I think the technical side of all this like the things you guys mentioned is where I struggle most. I think I changed the bpm after I imported the audio so I'll try re-entering the audio again.

The file may not be aligned to the grid. It may start with "pick-up notes" (a fraction of a bar with leading space). You need to zoom in and listen/watch to ensure that things that you know are strong notes (1 and 2 in a 4/4) happen in the right place, right on time. If something's off, you might need to first try shifting the clip left or right until they consistently do.

When you say this, I'm guessing you're essentially saying that the audio's notes should line up with the bar timeline correctly right? If that's not quite right then sorry.

This is just sort of a semi-related question I was curious about but, say a specific sound happens at a specific bar timing. So to match that, I add in a note in Piapro right on that specific bar timing. But for some reason, even though theoretically, the note I input into piapro should now play when it reaches the bar timing within my DAW, it's off by whole seconds. Is there a reason for that? I know it's probably not playback lag because when I go to export out the song file, that discrepancy is exactly the same. (Ack, if this is worded poorly let me know.)

 

[parallax_fifths]

I *think* in Piapro, the snap is set to only quarter notes. But there is a toggle for "Set snap value to triplets"? Or you can turn off snap entirely but that makes it hard to get all the notes totally equal in length. Would setting the snap value to triplets make the start and end point possibilities wider?

If the song is 4/4 and has triplets, they'll be relatively rare. Instead try changing to 1/8 notes as your base value.

 

[lIlI]

I see, I never really knew where to start when it came to music theory so all of this is super new to me. Would the stuff about the drum beat also apply to songs without drum presence?

Yes, music has an underlying rhythm even without drums! Arrhythmic music does exist, but it's not mainstream in Western culture. It's not uncommon to encounter songs that change their rhythm and BPM midway, however. Drums are just the instrument that demonstrates the beat in the most obvious way, because the primary job of drums is to emphasise the rhythm of a song. Here's an article with examples of common rhythmic patterns, as performed by drums. For anyone not familiar with drum notation: the lowest black note is the bass drum (deep boom), the middle note is the snare (loud slap/clack), high notes with 'x's are the hi-hats (little clicks).

If you can identify the rhythm of your song, clues to proper lyric timing will become apparent, because they will be following that rhythm in some way.

To feel the rhythm of a song, try clapping, swaying, or tapping your foot along with the music. Your body is moving instinctively on the beat. Notice how the stressed syllables of the lyrics start on these beats, and you're beginning to get a feel for the language of music. You already know a lot of this intuitively, music theory is about putting words to these concepts so we can observe them in more detail.

 

[Alphonse]

Ahh, I see. I think the technical side of all this like the things you guys mentioned is where I struggle most. I think I changed the bpm after I imported the audio so I'll try re-entering the audio again.


When you say this, I'm guessing you're essentially saying that the audio's notes should line up with the bar timeline correctly right? If that's not quite right then sorry.

This is just sort of a semi-related question I was curious about but, say a specific sound happens at a specific bar timing. So to match that, I add in a note in Piapro right on that specific bar timing. But for some reason, even though theoretically, the note I input into piapro should now play when it reaches the bar timing within my DAW, it's off by whole seconds. Is there a reason for that? I know it's probably not playback lag because when I go to export out the song file, that discrepancy is exactly the same. (Ack, if this is worded poorly let me know.)

Yeah, it sounds like you didn't time the instrumental to start at the start of the first bar.