Consensus on explicit songs

[Kurenai_Akari]

So, I've been wondering about this for awhile now, but what are the Western fandom's thoughts on explicit songs? For the sake of context: Explicit songs can be lyrically or subjective (as in the topic of the song) "adult" (i.e. in regards to the act of intercourse), violent or anything to do with heavy/controversial issues (i.e. "Wash My Blood", "Gomen ne Gomen ne"). Of course not everything is cut & dry or in your face, there are many songs that have nuances, double entendres and so on. I've read in the Vocaloid T.o.S. and the Piapro site, stating that they forbid songs like these, but producers still have made them regardless of the rules.

So, is this considered a gray area? Has anyone really gotten in trouble for creating an infamous song? How much can one get away with before the warnings come in?


Note: I'm not really planning for an explicit song or anything YET, but I do enjoy the discussion of censorship and song writing.



Also, I wasn't sure where to place this thread at to be honest. If there's a problem with this being in this part of the forum, let me know.

 

[ZAR-PARTY | ЦАРЬ-ПАРТИ]

Depends on the song and PV. Generally, I'm against any pornographic visuals of VOCALOIDs, especially minors, and especially Miku. I love Miku, and if anyone thinks it would be funny to show the real-life me hentai images of her, then he's a dead man.
Just like said in the terms of use, VOCALOID characters are meant to be used for musical compositions by a large community. It's the music industry, not the porn industry. It's OK to express one's sexual feelings through music, nowadays some artists even make erotic MVs. But if you want to make porn, just draw your own characters, do whatever you want with them, and let the music industry and VOCALOID fandom stay out of it. Or if you want to see a VOCALOID naked so desparately, just draw a doujin and keep it for yourself without showing it to the Internet. I knew a guy who knew Hatsune Miku years before I did - because of hentai! That's a sign that the NSFW community has gone so far that people don't know what the character's actual purpose is! In my opinion, the right holders of VOCALOID characters need to act more strict to ensure that people follow their terms of use. Amazon Germany has once removed almost every single Miku dakimakura for some reason (not the other anime ones). I don't know if Crypton was aware of it but I would appreciate to see actions like that.

However, while I'm strictly against NSFW usage of VOCALOID characters, I don't have a problem with suggestive songs at all. As stated previously, artists can express whatever they want through music, even if it's sex, political opinions or even mental issues like the suicide-factor. I don't have a problem with hearing out ones feelings, even if the lyrics use insults and a difficult language. Yes, even if I have an entirely different opinion, I can still enjoy a song, even if Miku is singing with/about some guy. Two of my favorite producers are OkameP and LamazeP - two guys with an entirely different style. OkameP writes sad metal songs about death, suicide etc. LamazeP writes happy pop and denpa songs and uses lewd puns. What they have in common what I like? Awesome music, beautiful voice tuning, emotional lyrics (depends on the song) and they both make love songs.
However there is one thing that even lyrics can ruin a song for me: discrimination against beliefs, nationalities, sexual orientations etc.
"God-slaying Machine" and "Taking Over Moscow"? Over my corpse! As an orthodox Russian, I can only sh*t on those songs.

Artists have their freedom to use VOCALOIDs however they want because, technically, VOCALOIDs are instruments and mascots, but this freedom ends once it crosses the freedom of other people (even a minority group) or breaks the terms of use, which work like human rights, which VOCALOID characters, unfortunately, don't have. If a big part of artists neglect the terms of use, it will only lead to a mass of visible NSFW content which results in the fandom being seen as a bunch of perverts, but following these terms will keep the order and secure that VOCALOIDs and their fandom will always be recognized as part of the music industry.

 

[uncreepy]

Hmm, I generally don't care what other people do. I either like a song or don't and move on, regardless of it having a controversial topic or not. So the result is the same for me, isn't it?

These are the Crypton character terms of service, for example:

piapro.net
When you copy or modify the Characters, please do not distort, mutilate, modify or take other derogatory action in relation to the Characters that would be prejudicial to Crypton's honor or reputation (please see Section 4e. of the full license). Some examples of prohibited uses include use in an overly violent context or in a sexual context.

Here is the full version.

I feel like Crypton (for example), just puts a rule like that to cover themselves in case someone makes something so horrible that they have to take it down.

I read the lyrics to "Gomen ne Gomen ne" and only found the 1st 2 paragraphs to be over-the-top. However, being forced to play "Holy Lance Explosion Boy" in the OFFICIAL Hatsune Miku: Project Diva X game messed me up. Watching a 14 year old gyrating around, talking about doin' the do through innuendo, was disturbing on a physical, mental, and spiritual level. I'll never be the same person again. OTL If a character has an official age, it's messed up to have them used in an age innapropriate manner, especially since a lot of Vocaloid fans are young.

I translated part of a song for someone at VocaloidOtaku and it was literally about abuse and had sound effects of Miku begging and sounding distressed while singing about being unloved and getting beat up. It was too real/disturbing for me to finish. I like to listen to metal songs about over-the-top, unrealistic mentions of death (bathing in blood, killing til morning comes, keeping eyes in a jar), but I have a limit. Either a song is 1) cheesy with "Ooh, look how edgy I am" (like "Wash My Blood") where I can't take it seriously as insulting or cool, 2) is just artistic and obviously not real (so, enjoyable like a horror movie), or 3) "too real" and too messed up to be enjoyable (that song about Miku being abused and begging, how is that fun to listen to?).

I guess for a song to be so controversial that it disgusts me, it has to be devoid of any fun and filled only with hopeless suffering (abuse). The underage character thing is questionable, since I'm okay with Miku love songs like "Ageage Again", but if it's something like "Holy Lance Explosion Boy" I question their motivation behind such graphic imagery with a young character. I certainly don't find it funny. S:

 

[Hatsune-hakase]

I put "like them" but I really should have put "indifferent" because it really isn't something that I factor into my liking a song. A song being explicit isn't likely to affect whether or not I like it.

 

[WintermintP]

I for one would have to say not only do I hate all NSFW songs, I also hate all songs with sexual innuendos and everything else. This is because those things are nightmare fuel due to the times back in elementary and high school when I was called a homosexual, even though I'm not, just because I wasn't sexually interested in girls. I'm an asexual, but the term "asexual" was never in people's vocabularies at the time. Also, even as someone who does metal myself, I don't listen to any metal songs that are from the Vocaloid scene. Why? The severity of the NSFW is a lot worse (read: A LOT worse) than the metal songs that are from outside the Vocaloid community, to the point it gives me the impression that the other producers are thinking that metal is all about being NSFW, which it isn't, and that's all the more reason why I'm actually sick of the Vocaloid metal scene. As a matter of fact, I dare you to name even one metal producer other than me who doesn't write songs about sex, blood, or gore for the majority of his/her entire discography. You can't. It's either that I'm the only one, or he/she is not active anymore. Stuff like this is clearly against the ToS, so why is it that they get away with this? Why is it that the popular songs from the Vocaloid metal scene are always the ones that have really bad NSFW themes, especially when, there's an entire genre of metal that's the polar opposite of the said themes (i.e. power metal) and there are plenty of metal songs from outside the Vocaloid scene that have way better lyrics that don't even talk about anything NSFW?

Also, if it's against the ToS, it's against the ToS, profane or not. The way I see it, that means the songs with innuendos are breaking the ToS as well.

Even profanity, to me, depends on the severity and the intent of it. If there was profanity for the sake of comedy, as long as it's not NSFW, I'm kind of okay with it. Everything else is a big no in my book.

I've written political lyrics, and I have written politically disturbing lyrics to bring up a serious point, but I've never written even one song where NSFW content was ever the main theme.

TL;DR: I'm not okay with NSFW. AT ALL. Even as someone who writes metal songs for a living.

WintermintP

 

[idoltrash69]

I really like to see explicit lyrics, mostly because they're willing to talk about topics that are mostly seen as "taboo". Things like sex, drugs, etc, are not things that people or society want to talk about, and I find it brave that there are producers that are willing to bring these topics to the light. It's always interesting to see everyone's different views on a topic, I really like it. So yeah, I have no problems with explicit lyrics, I think they're very interesting and the things they talk about should be more talked about by others as well.

 

[Kona]

I do not like explocig anything with Vocaloid really. I mean NSFW/sexual themes are fine to me BUT that's what I listen to mainstream music for (though it's not prinarily but ya know. I don't like Vocaloid being like that. I also get really uncomfortable by most controversial, dark, anything like that themes (why I don't listen to the popular ptoducers ever). That's just not how I am. Anyone who decently knows me can kinda put together I'm very light and pure, I guess? Less of an issue in Vocaloid from what I've seen, but strong language/cussing, I also kinda hate.

Though this doesn't keep me from liking songs with those themes, I just really try to stay away from them.

 

[Cluemily]

I'm pretty sure in the past more explicit songs were less common (eg. DeadballP used to have issues when he tried to sell CDs of his works and would have to reupload his songs with altered lyrics) but nowadays it's gotten pretty common. VOCALOID is just a vocalist to convey whatever the producer wants to get across via song and most songs either don't use the mascot of the vocalist in the PV or will 'cos the ages are easily disregarded and warped to fit the needs to each producer. Sticking to what little canon information there is is pointless at this point unless the PV specifically states/implies an age it's best to assume the mascot is old enough in the PV to do whatever it is.

They've never bothered me and some are pretty catchy (eg. Secret DVD is still a good jam despite the whole sex tape thing). And using a VOCALOID is a good way for producers who want to produce more adult songs to do so without getting embarrassed or worried a human vocalist would refuse due to them also being embarrassed (unless you're like Reol who gets more embarrassed over writing cute lyrics over sexy/lewd ones).

The only time I've found a song to be weird was probably "innocent girl" from KagomeP. Yuki explicitly stated she was 9 and that PV was pretty weird for me with that piece of info on Yuki's age for the song. So yeah the only time I really don't enjoy them is probably when the song itself implies/states the character is too young for that kinda stuff or when something arises about the producer themselves and their more...inappropriate song topics are them sort of projecting their own desires into songs. 'Cos then false stories in songs can be seen as more personal desires/experiences imo and it can kind of shine the whole song in a whole other light.

 

[WintermintP]

I should also add that the only one time I've done a song that might have suggestive lyrics is the one where I didn't write the lyrics at all, so...

Yea, most cases, no NSFW. If there was NSFW, I didn't write the lyrics.

WintermintP

 

[Blue Of Mind]

I'm pretty sure in the past more explicit songs were less common (eg. DeadballP used to have issues when he tried to sell CDs of his works and would have to reupload his songs with altered lyrics) but nowadays it's gotten pretty common.

I've seen a lot more sexually explicit songs now than I did back when DeadballP was dropping his infamous tracks, so I guess producers have gotten used to the idea of more mature Vocaloid songs. Plus, I don't think there have been a lot of takedowns issued by companies regarding inappropriate songs.

Regardless, I'm indifferent to explicit songs. If it sounds good, I'm fine with it, even if the subject matter makes me uncomfortable (though most of the time, I end up not listening to such kind of songs often because I don't fancy being disturbed on a regular basis lol.)

 

[Pomelo]

I'm all for doing whatever the hell you want tbh. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The main point of art is to express yourself, and I think you should be allowed to do so. Although, of course, if that expression is controversial (taboo topics, hate speech, etc.) you should be prepared to face the inevitable backlash from the community and/or repercussions.

Also, gomen ne gomen ne is one of my favourite Miku songs, so...yeah, I usually like them. How the song sounds is more important to me than the lyrics, generally.

 

[WintermintP]

Even if taboo songs were to be acceptable by today's standards, which they shouldn't be, the major problem there would be that such songs have been done to death. If you're writing a song to teach a good lesson, then that's fine, but writing taboo topics just for the hell of it is what I find disgusting, and again, it's common in the Vocaloid metal scene and I'm sick of it, which is also why I'm against it.

If anything, metal producers in the Vocaloid scene should be challenged to write songs that do not break the Vocaloid ToS. If it were a nonsensical restriction, that would've been fine, but I write metal tracks that are not NSFW all the time, so I really don't see why NSFW songs are acceptable, especially when they not only break the Vocaloid ToS but they're also usually there just for the sake of edginess, and that's disgusting because not only is that dishonest, if you're proud about breaking the Vocaloid ToS then you're either mentally deranged or you're insensitive to everyone else who can't enjoy a genre (most notably, yes, metal) because of the prevalent NSFW.

It's disgusting, it's dishonest, and it just breeds bad blood in the long run. I'm completely against NSFW.

And the fact that this is a metalhead that's saying this should say a lot.

WintermintP

 

[hamano]

I'd say indifferent although there is a limit. Holy Lance Explosion Boy for example makes me uncomfortable especially given the fact that Len is 14. Also the way explicit things are handled matters. Lyrics can be about sex for example and still be beautiful instead of pornographic (although in that case they tend to lean towards being suggestive instead of explicit I guess, but not always). All in all, I think it's ok for producers to express themselves as long as they don't go into promoting stuff that's illegal or write lyrics that are clearly against the general moral consensus or are abusive.

As for the Crypton Character ToS I think they have that up just in case they come across something they simply can't allow. Generally Crypton doesn't really seem to care though. Perhaps they're afraid that by strictly enforcing the terms they could get accused of suffocating creativity or something.

 

[Trevor]

I view lyrics as a form of art and am completely against censorship. If something makes you uncomfortable... that's life. There is a lot of sex and drug abuse out there. The voice providers are of age and many producers don't think about the vocaloids age when producing a song. Just let people do what they want. I mean like... you wouldn't burn a book because it was "immoral"

 

[Kurenai_Akari]

Oh wow! I didn't think that this thread would garner such responses. Color me surprised. Well, I've read though everyone's responses (and the two new ones that popped up while I reading) and it seems that mature songs are a gray area community.

Here's my take on it: Eh.

I really don't care for the most part. If the music is good, I'll look up the lyrics. If the lyrics are crazy, it doesn't mean that the music is bad. They're just one halves of the whole. Pomelo & Trevor pretty much sum up what I feel: lyrics are an art form, they should not be subject to censorship & our right to free speech (in America) does not/will not save us from whatever criticism & consequences that came of what we make/made. Music is music & lyrics are lyrics, unless you condone the acts you portray in your song, then there is an issue. However, it kinda stops being about the music at that point & you're just questioning the morals of that producer/lyricist. I am not a supporter at all of moral policing or extreme SJW culture. I feel that it's oppressive in their own ways, putting it politely.

 

[idoltrash69]

I view lyrics as a form of art and am completely against censorship. If something makes you uncomfortable... that's life. There is a lot of sex and drug abuse out there. The voice providers are of age and many producers don't think about the vocaloids age when producing a song. Just let people do what they want. I mean like... you wouldn't burn a book because it was "immoral"

THIS THIS THIS

 

[WintermintP]

I view lyrics as a form of art and am completely against censorship. If something makes you uncomfortable... that's life. There is a lot of sex and drug abuse out there. The voice providers are of age and many producers don't think about the vocaloids age when producing a song. Just let people do what they want. I mean like... you wouldn't burn a book because it was "immoral"

The problem there, is that if a song goes as bad as promoting racism or paedophilia, the line has to be drawn somewhere. I'm all in favour of libertarianism, but censorship is inevitable. As much as there are people that don't like the said uncomfortable topics, there always will be at least some kind of authority that will crack down on an artist that claims it was all for free speech. They will argue that "that's life." Does that sound fair to you?

You must also look into the reasons why such songs were written in the first place. They write these songs because they're taboo and they're writing these songs just for the hell of it. I've said it so many times and I'll say it again, that's dishonest, and that's why it's actually a bad thing. Again, if you're writing taboo lyrics/themes to teach a good lesson (e.g. ME!ME!ME!), then that's fine, but a lot of these are not like that.

Not only is censorship inevitable, it will be necessary at some point, because free speech can always be abused and it can always infringe on other people's rights. That's why it's obvious that freedom of speech is a myth, and yes, this is coming from a radical who holds left-wing values.

WintermintP

 

[Eviltreat16]

In terms of what I'd consider explicit, I'm generally okay with more dark songs. For example, I like several Kikuo's songs which, well, they tread in some dark places (Not Gomen Ne, Gomen Ne...The one song I REFUSE to listen to again cuz the lyrics made me ill). I don't mind super sexual stuff either to an extent (straight on porn songs not my taste nor do I actively seek them). I like the song Holy Lance Explosion Boy, but I generally ignore Len's age and focus on the lyrical content being put on an unnamed male who is being sung about. I get why people are not cool with those songs though, and I respect it. It's not for everyone. As mentioned above, I believe in freedom of expression/no censorship, since you can just not listen/watch/view something in terms of the general discussion of sexual content/violence mentioned in songs. Edit: Forgot to add, that I also just think it's funny when Vocaloids swear. It's nice that most songs I listen to aren't overboard on swearing like more mainstream genres do.

 

[Rylitah]

What some people said about the TOS makes an interesting point -- the TOS is just there in case there's something Crypton absolutely needs to defend themselves against, i.e "we never actually allowed this and so we don't condone it."

Otherwise, who at Crypton actually has the time to go through every Miku song ever to make sure the lyrics don't go against the TOS? If you go beyond Miku, then Rin? Len? Luka?

Back to what OP is asking, I generally don't really care about lyrics. I'm into music for how the music sounds, and I rarely if ever look into what the lyrics of the song actually are. The only time I'm ever actually uncomfortable with it is if it's something the singer clearly should not be singing about -- Yuki being a good example where I try to pay a bit more attention to what the song is. Aside from that... I never really have an issue.

 

[Pomelo]

I mean like... you wouldn't burn a book because it was "immoral"

Yes, definitely! I'm really hesitant towards some newer waves of thinking which state 'author/artist/etc. is bad, therefore you shouldn't consume their work and their work is also bad'. Of course, a lot of books rely heavily on context from the author's own life, but by banning them outright because of problematic aspects, there's a lot of great books you'd miss out on imo. While you definitely don't need to agree with or even like everything you read, I think it's a good idea to explore all sorts of mindsets/writing/etc. (Just my humble 2 cents as an English major)(also sorry this was basically an aside).

I think the other problem is we can never really 100% glean the mindset and intentions of an author when they've created something. The whole point of literary criticism is to subject a piece to different viewpoints and derive new meanings and interpretations from the work. The same could easily be said for songs.
And yes, while some artists may say, "I meant this-and-that when I made this", there's still contextual cues, audience experience, criticism, etc. to take into account. (And, of course, we have to take the artist at face value and assume they're telling the truth.)

(Also Rylitah makes a good point about the ToS imo).