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Feedback The ranking system here

WintermintP

Lead Guitar, One Minute Winter
#21
@Elsa12TMNT I don't think you're getting the point? I said the ranking system should be thrown away entirely. Seriously, it breeds bad blood because some people won't be taken seriously just because of their rankings, even though, for example, they happen to be actual artists that have been in the scene for a few years (such as me). If you look at forums that are not Vocaloid or UTAU, most notably Sevenstring.org, you'll see that there's none of that there, so I really don't see the point of having a ranking system at all here either, especially when, like I said, it breeds bad blood. I don't know how it is with Vocaloid communities, but this was the case for any other forum site that had ranking systems that I was part of.

TL;DR: Just abolish the ranking system. Completely. I'm not trying to offend anyone here, but I've been through enough forum sites to know that this is going to be a problem in the long term.

Even if there really has to be a ranking system, there should also be another user category (we have admins and moderators currently) such as "Verified Artist" so that those who are not actually new to the community are actually shown as such.

WintermintP
 

Blue Of Mind

The world that I do not know...
#22
I think Wintermint might be a minority on here, unless other people pipe up and say they don't like the ranking system at all either. I don't mind it myself (since it encourages people to post more often, which is what a forum needs to keep existing), and you can't see someone's total posts at all unless you click the arrow below their icon and check their stats. (And who's seriously going to be stalkerish and check everyone's post counts on here?)

I never had any issues on VO because of my rank (the highest I ever got on there was the Kaito rank), and I haven't heard of any problems specifically with rank positions yet because most of us are still on lower ranks.
 

ZAR-PARTY

Tsar of Mikutopia
Apr 8, 2018
205
265
Germany
soundcloud.com
#23
I don't have a problem with the current system either. Nor with the post hierarchy. Honestly, the opinion of someone who is active on here is more important to me than the opinion of someone with less than 10 posts who might be just a troll that spends one day on here.
Adding sprites would be nice and that's all.
 

idoltrash69

♡ Rin is my wife, Miku is my goddess! ♡
Apr 8, 2018
155
142
Santiago, Chile
www.youtube.com
#24
Even if there really has to be a ranking system, there should also be another user category (we have admins and moderators currently) such as "Verified Artist" so that those who are not actually new to the community are actually shown as such.
This seems like a good idea, I like it. Though I still think there should be a ranking system, and maybe this too.
 

Rylitah

kiyoteru enthusiast (ロwロ)
Apr 8, 2018
36
70
#25
I don't mind the ranking system either. Besides, it's a ranking for how long you've been using this specific forum, not how long you've been active in the scene. I think it's perfectly fine -- having sprites to show for it would be cute, though.

I've been on hundreds of forums; I've never seen anyone care about ranks beyond wanting to post more to increase it (which is the point of them).
 

hamano

みくみくにしてくれた人
Apr 8, 2018
89
90
25
Finland
#26
Personally I wouldn't throw away the ranking system, it has been said before, but it's just one way of encouraging people to be active and keep the forum going. Plus I don't have a problem with someone being "low rank", to me a high rank doesn't increase one's credibility really. Someone's rank doesn't really tell much about how knowledgeable they are on the subject at hand. In fact on some forums I've been around on, posts with great insight and most value tend to come from those who don't post so much (eg. they post less, but their posts are high-quality). To me ranks are just a bit of added fun, nothing to be taken too seriously.

Special categories like "Verified Artist" WintermintP suggested don't sound too good to me either. I'm not against it, but I'm afraid it would be hard to determine who can get such a rank and who's refused.
 

ZAR-PARTY

Tsar of Mikutopia
Apr 8, 2018
205
265
Germany
soundcloud.com
#27
Personally I wouldn't throw away the ranking system, it has been said before, but it's just one way of encouraging people to be active and keep the forum going. Plus I don't have a problem with someone being "low rank", to me a high rank doesn't increase one's credibility really. Someone's rank doesn't really tell much about how knowledgeable they are on the subject at hand. In fact on some forums I've been around on, posts with great insight and most value tend to come from those who don't post so much (eg. they post less, but their posts are high-quality). To me ranks are just a bit of added fun, nothing to be taken too seriously.

Special categories like "Verified Artist" WintermintP suggested don't sound too good to me either. I'm not against it, but I'm afraid it would be hard to determine who can get such a rank and who's refused.
That's the point.
Who exactly is a "verified artist"? Someone who makes original songs? Someone who has uploaded an illustration? Someone who is selling albums or otherwise making money?
It sounds more like something that only fits to VocaDB but not forums where almost everyone is kind of an artist.
 

Elsa12TMNT

Barely Getting Started
#28
Besides, it's a ranking for how long you've been using this specific forum, not how long you've been active in the scene. I think it's perfectly fine -- having sprites to show for it would be cute, though.
Plus I don't have a problem with someone being "low rank", to me a high rank doesn't increase one's credibility really. Someone's rank doesn't really tell much about how knowledgeable they are on the subject at hand. In fact on some forums I've been around on, posts with great insight and most value tend to come from those who don't post so much (eg. they post less, but their posts are high-quality). To me ranks are just a bit of added fun, nothing to be taken too seriously.
I personally agree with both of these statements. Ranks are managed by a program based on post count on a forum - they will never give an accurate ranking of someone's overall experience and participation in both Vocaloid itself and its community. It's not even perfectly accurate to how active someone is on the forum. People that do act as if it tells one's experience with Vocaloid are being ridiculous. This place is totally new and fresh. If we breed an environment where people think it's ok to treat others this way, then it will definitely become a problem. If mods don't do their part in discouraging that type of behavior, then it will be a problem. However, I doubt anyone wants that (or is gonna do those things); nobody here seems to be acting like so. I trust the mods that we have. And, honestly, if it does become a problem, I'll turn the other way and ignore the crap out of whoever is being condescending, because if they think that "forum rankings" of all things are what gives someone credit, then obviously they don't deserve much credit.

On a side note, I think it should be more obvious to users where the stats are coming from. I didn't figure it out until I read this thread. On this one site, the ranking symbol key was at the bottom of the thread pages.
aaah.PNG
Here it's very clear what's what. With the weird custom ranks some people have and the vague names, it can be hard to guess what the rankings even mean.
 

Pomelo

In 2D hell
Apr 8, 2018
127
141
#29
I think the only time users took issue with my rank is back in the VO days when I was a mod and they didn't like what I was saying (i.e. they thought I was kissing Azure's ass). Same deal back when I had an honoured member rank on another forum. :clara_lili:
There is definitely elitist attitudes towards them in some forums, but I don't really think it'll be much of an issue here (or at least, not for quite a while if/when the forum becomes VERY populated-in which cause we could address it then).

I just see them as a cute little flourish to add to a user profile, especially if they're sprites. I did love the sprites...I also really love custom titles. So I guess I'd be happy seeing either implemented!
 
Likes: Elsa12TMNT

WintermintP

Lead Guitar, One Minute Winter
#30
(sigh) Perhaps it's just me finding the ranking system itself ridiculous because the other forum sites I'm active in don't even have any of that so it really feels like they don't make sense, but yes, like @Elsa12TMNT was saying here, I, too am worried about the risk long-term, but I would rather see action being taken now than to wait until the problem builds up.

That's the point.
Who exactly is a "verified artist"? Someone who makes original songs? Someone who has uploaded an illustration? Someone who is selling albums or otherwise making money?
It sounds more like something that only fits to VocaDB but not forums where almost everyone is kind of an artist.
A "Verified Artist" would be exactly how it works at VocaDB. If you have the "Verified Artist" tag on VocaDB, then you would have the "Verified Artist" tag on here also. Anyone that makes original songs/illustrations would be the ones that get the title, if it gets implemented.

The reason why I brought this up is because not all people who have been active in the Vocaloid scene use forums all that often. I, for example, had no clue this site existed until I heard about it from monds years later.

And because only a percentage of artists that are on VocaDB actually have VocaDB accounts so I figured it wouldn't be like almost everyone in the world would have that.

WintermintP
 
Likes: Elsa12TMNT

ZAR-PARTY

Tsar of Mikutopia
Apr 8, 2018
205
265
Germany
soundcloud.com
#31
(sigh) Perhaps it's just me finding the ranking system itself ridiculous because the other forum sites I'm active in don't even have any of that so it really feels like they don't make sense, but yes, like @Elsa12TMNT was saying here, I, too am worried about the risk long-term, but I would rather see action being taken now than to wait until the problem builds up.


A "Verified Artist" would be exactly how it works at VocaDB. If you have the "Verified Artist" tag on VocaDB, then you would have the "Verified Artist" tag on here also. Anyone that makes original songs/illustrations would be the ones that get the title, if it gets implemented.

The reason why I brought this up is because not all people who have been active in the Vocaloid scene use forums all that often. I, for example, had no clue this site existed until I heard about it from monds years later.

And because only a percentage of artists that are on VocaDB actually have VocaDB accounts so I figured it wouldn't be like almost everyone in the world would have that.

WintermintP
That would require
1) an artist entry on VocaDB
2) a verified account.
Sorry, I'm just not a fan of linked accounts. Once you have trouble at one place, trouble also comes to the other place.
Also, it's still a small community. Out of 100 users, ~50 are musicians or illustrators. Basically everyone who is talking in The Studio and other art forums qualifies as an artist. Half of our forums are made for artists. I don't see how it would be beneficial for all users of these forums to get a special title. Since it's already enough to upload a cover to make a VocaDB entry, half of our users would be "verified artists".
I think that verification should be exclusive to representatives of organizations and such.

I mean, I get your point that you want skilled artists to stand out. Giving privileges to artists who make money with their works would only lead to a conflict of "who is an artist and who not". After all, money is no equal to quality in the VOCALOID scene. Some artists on these forums, who don't sell anything, have more fans and followers than those who put everything on sale.
Honestly, this is just something that could lead to a lot of drama which none of us wants to have.
 

uncreepy

twins: Japanese translator Poobah & 3D Poobah
Apr 9, 2018
86
120
USA
#33
Wow, I had no idea how passionate everyone is about things like titles and little chibis being under them. To be honest, I don't pay attention to the title section for comments. I just look at avatars and usernames and feel lucky being able to remember those. XD;
 
Likes: Elsa12TMNT

WintermintP

Lead Guitar, One Minute Winter
#34
@ZAR-PARTY It's not about whether a said artist makes money or not. It's more about figuring out who actually has been active in the Vocaloid community/scene and who's actually new. I'm more worried about people who are not new being treated as if they don't matter just because they have a low post count due to circumstances other than "this person is actually new."

This is about separating the "new" members (old members from another site having migrated recently) from members who are actually new, nothing else.

WintermintP
 

Paradoxical

Linguistics Enthusiast
Staff member
Administrator
Mar 7, 2018
117
175
Canada
#35
The purpose of the ranking isn't to denote how well known/how long someone has been in fandom. It's to show how active they are on this very website and to encourage them to post.

We do not have any plans on giving any sort of special label to artists or producers within the forums. This site is meant to be a fun, social place for all parts of fandom. While content creators are heavily important in the fandom (and we have many sections that are organized specifically for showing off their content), we do not wish to place any sort of value on a user. Likewise, staff will not tolerate any posts that unfairly discriminate against another user for something like their post count.

I have looked into ways to have both a custom title and a ranking system (similar to how VO had), but sadly there do not seem to be any add-ons that would allow both. The forum software is fairly new though, so add-ons are still being created regularly. Meanwhile, we will continue to listen to feedback about user titles. As was previously mentioned, we do have a future plan for them, so they will not remain the way they are forever.
 

Sphinx

magical girl
Staff member
Administrator
Mar 6, 2018
16
16
#36
@Elsa12TMNT
Even if there really has to be a ranking system, there should also be another user category (we have admins and moderators currently) such as "Verified Artist" so that those who are not actually new to the community are actually shown as such.
WintermintP
First and foremost, this site was made almost entirely with the creators and artists in mind as a basis. Everyone could be considered an artist - and as many have stated already, it could cause many problems with how art or creations that qualify for the role are defined. We're open to suggestions, and the last thing we want people to see us as is against creators in any way when me, Paradoxical and Bascetta have tried our best to put creators at the center.

@ZAR-PARTYIt's more about figuring out who actually has been active in the Vocaloid community/scene and who's actually new. I'm more worried about people who are not new being treated as if they don't matter just because they have a low post count due to circumstances other than "this person is actually new."

This is about separating the "new" members (old members from another site having migrated recently) from members who are actually new, nothing else.
WintermintP
We don't care about who is new to the fandom and who isn't - it would be the same as negatively judging those who are new to treat those who aren't, based on information from off-site, with more respect or acknowledgement. Forums aren't for popularity contests or for maintaining an established audience - they're for the opposite and to help people get to a point where they can form an audience on other platforms. I wouldn't want to make the community so intimidating this way, as it very much is already for people on the outside. This mentality is one of the main things that have prevented many artists from even using Vocaloid, and I want our environment to help easily welcome those who aren't fans and are interested. We want more people, especially producers, to take notice to it and feel comfortable with being part of this community.
How long you've been active in the "community/scene" doesn't say anything about a person either.
It doesn't mean you have more skill than someone who's new, and it doesn't make you a better person.
I was a fan of Vocaloid myself since the start in around 07, but I haven't kept up with everything and don't know half of the Vocaloids there are now.
I've been a non-voca music producer for almost a decade and have done some things professionally even, but I still can't figure out how to get a good sound out of Vocaloid.
I'm not the only one like this, so where would it put me if I weren't admin? Probably not as someone with experience in the community by these standards, even if I've helped countless people in the "scene" with production and things regarding it in the past.
That would be a real pain for some people to be excluded like that.

When I go to a thread, I don't see a post count or rank. I see a title that interests me, or possibly a question I want to help answer. I believe very few people, if any, look at a thread and go "hmm, I don't think the OP's rank is good enough" or "their post rank is so high, they must have great posts!"
It doesn't change the quality of your post's contents or anything else about you.

With that all said, I also want to make clear that I don't wholeheartedly disagree with you on the rankings. I would prefer to see custom titles over rank titles, but that's unfortunately impossible at the moment unless we choose that over sprites. I can also see why you might be upset about being considered new to the fandom with its current choice of words, however:
index.png
In my opinion, rankings represented as sprites will be fine as decoration which shows how active a person has been on the forums specifically. Just like with any website, we can't account for what people have done off of the site. All that can be asked is that people use common sense - treat people fair without bias, and respect others regardless of ranks or post count.
 
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uncreepy

twins: Japanese translator Poobah & 3D Poobah
Apr 9, 2018
86
120
USA
#37
Forums aren't for popularity contests or for maintaining an established audience - they're for the opposite and to help people get to a point where they can form an audience on other platforms. I wouldn't want to make the community so intimidating this way, as it very much is already for people on the outside.
Good insight. I think the point of the forum is to share information and lift up other members. To congratulate others for completing projects (drawings, songs) and share experience (through tutorials, answering questions). Each member has a different background, whether it's as someone who draws, someone who can play an instrument, someone who knows how to mix really well, someone who knows a lot of Vocaloid facts, someone who translates... It's hard to measure.

I think profiles and signatures are good ways to promote your work outside of the forum (such as links to YouTube). If someone is really helpful and nice here, I tend to get interested in their activities outside of VocaVerse and follow them on Twitter and stuff. That's why I don't care about rankings or post count, etc. If someone impacts me and I look up to them, that's worth a lot more than a title or number of chibis under their avatar.
 

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