Unpopular Opinions

[peaches2217]

Coming back to this after Itako's Neutrino release and boy do I see your point now loud and clear. The engine really bends the voice into the singing style that's very specific to Neutrino but the voice loses a lot of individuality in the process. I wish Itako would've gotten Vocaloid release instead of us getting Kiritan 2.0 release.

Sorry for sounding kinda harsh but I'm rather disappointed, I guess there's still her utau vb :/

I've gotta agree, listening closer... Itako sounds like Kiritan if she were singing in her chest rather than her head. There's just not much distinction. Itako sounds more like a Kiritan append than, y'know, a separate VB, and it's really disappointing. She sounds great! She just doesn't sound distinct anymore. There's no point in creating an entire new bank if she just sounds the same as another bank with a higher Gender parameter: it's a waste of resources.

Basically, Neutrino's realism and smoothness comes at the expense of variety. If they add any new banks and they go the same route as Itako, the hype's gonna die out entirely. No one cares how realistic something is if they can only produce one result with it.

 

[Prism]

But neutrino can create more than one voice in my honest opinion jsut and yoko are great examples. I think Kiritan and Itako sound similar because they are singing the same style and have very similar voice type. They aren't exactly the same though Itako is more neutral tone and stays on pitch better and kiritan has a twang. They sound amazing together in harmonies. I vastly prefer the neutrino bank to the vocaloid one they used in the vacuum cleaner.

 

[___]

These two have been on my mind:

Honestly comparing all the duo voicebanks that have been released to Rin/Len makes no sense as they don't fulfill the same purpose:

1. Rin/Len- set of female and male vocals meant to harmonize well with one another so the producer has easy access to male and female vocaloids with equal vocal capabilities
2. Anon/Kanon- Anon's essentially a soft Kanon append
3. Hime/Mikoto- set of feminine vocals meant to contrast one another and fulfill different roles while still remaining a solid duo due to sharing the same vp
4. Kotonohas- c'mon this isnt even fair, they're one voicebank

Maybe the only fair comparison that I can think of is comapring Hime and Mikoto's quality to Rin and Len act1

Two...since I haven't mentioned Nana in two seconds...I don't think Macne Nana's V4 eng vb is deserving of being put into category of vocaloids beginners should totally avoid, she's just... unconventional and some things that are deliberate are wrongfully treated as mistakes but once shes embarced for what she is ...I honestly think she makes a great vb for someone who's transitioning from beginner to intermediate level as far as engloids go only cuz the non-deliberate mispronunciations she has are rather consistent and once you've got them figured out she's good bean and besides that you don't really have other annoyances to deal with as her samples are smooth and HQ.

 

[DefiantKitsune]

3. Hime/Mikoto- set of feminine vocals meant to contrast one another and fulfill different roles while still remaining a solid duo due to sharing the same vp

I thought you said they weren't supposed to be the same as Rin and Len jk :P

I honestly don't think Len is a "masculine" vocal. This doesn't make him bad (I don't like him but that's not why) but he has a female VP and it's VERY obvious imo. (This also applies to Gachapoid).

 

[___]

voice acted masculine vocal, masculine vocal nonetheless

I thought you said they weren't supposed to be the same as Rin and Len :P

And theyre not, maybe if Hime got power bank or if Mikoto got soft bank then we could make a case.

 

[msmsmsm]

Maybe the only fair comparison that I can think of is comparing Hime and Mikoto's quality to Rin and Len act1

Okay, maybe I cackled.

Kanon could've been great, had her range not been so severely limited by the fact that she has 2 recorded pitches (they're pretty much two for the price of one, at the expense of quality). In my opinion, they should've gotten rid of Anon and focused on Kanon as a sole bank; she has an incredible upper range and I have no doubt her lower range could've been great, had they bothered to do the recordings. Of course, she still would've gained popularity at a snail's pace like the rest of Yamaha's banks, but damn, she could've been the VY1v4 Natural of V3 dfgdfgd.

Sorry Anon

 

[DefiantKitsune]

gonna be honest I think kanon solo would have done even worse: she's exactly the kind of JP female voicebank that releases and near immediately disappears like CUL or Mew. VY1 isn't a good comparison for sales b/c she's the default.

My point was that I don't find Len convincingly masculine acted at all. Mikoto, Lily, and Mew all sound more masculine than he does to me (and that's just the first three I thought of). He sounds like a girl trying to sound slightly deep. It's fine to say Len is a "masculine" acted voice but I don't find him convincing for it and don't count him there. It has nothing to do with not liking him: if Yanhe had been Moke, I would have said the same thing.

Edit: Honestly I don't think comparing all duo vocaloids to Rin and Len is fair either, but the fact is that the target market WILL compare new duo vocals to Rin and Len and companies have to be aware of that. No duo JP vocals will ever NOT be compared to those two.

 

[msmsmsm]

VY1 isn't a good comparison for sales b/c she's the default.

oh, I wasn't using her as a comparison for sales, I was referring the type of voice (if her lower range was soft, etc). I like both Anon and Kanon, but the fact that they hardly have any pitches and are so limited range wise hinders their versatility. Anon fares better because she's got a soft VB, and when she goes down to her lower register it doesn't sound so bad, Kanon though... yeah.

I agree that comparisons between duo voicebanks is inevitable though, even I compared as soon as AnoKano were released dkgdfg.

 

[DefiantKitsune]

Oh I assumed for the voice that's what you meant- I just wanted to throw out that I think kanon solo would have done even worse, since vbs in VY1's group besides her have historically done very poorly, unfortunately.

 

[lIlI]

Despite being one of the most talked about things in the community, tuning is the least important element to making a Vocaloid song.

 

[Rolo]

Despite being one of the most talked about things in the community, tuning is the least important element to making a Vocaloid song.

I definitely agree with you but as someone who’s more interested in the vocal synth side of vocaloid (beyond the characters) could you elaborate more on this?

 

[msmsmsm]

tuning is the least important element to making a Vocaloid song.

I'm gonna disagree on this one. Good tuning can seriously elevate a song, and having a tuning style that's instantly recognizable could be pretty helpful to producers (Tiara would be a good example of both). There are certain producers where I don't mind the minimal tuning, like EZFG or Niki, because their music is just that good, But I have no doubt that songs like GimmexGimme wouldn't have the replay value that they do if they weren't tuned so good.

Not having good tuning isn't a bad thing though, I'd rather have an untuned but well produced/mixed track than the opposite.

 

[Prism]

Mixing > tuning .

I feel like mixing is a more important skill than tuning. You can make it sound as tuned as you want but if you can't mix it right it ruins the song.

 

[___]

I think it isn't really a black/white matter, some songs benfit from from lacking/having minimal tuning and for some good tuning is crucial, one example I've mentioned is manbo-p, their composition is very good but their raw/minimally tuned Gumi was a total deal breaker for me.

 

[Prism]

On manbo-p I don't think it's the lack of tuning I think it's in the mix Gumi usually sounds ear gratingly harsh and doesn't sit well in the mix.

 

[___]

I believe it's both of those reasons why their stuff with Gumi doesn't work.

 

[Prism]

Yeah it is. Mothy-p can kinda make no tuning work but still would be better with tuning

 

[lIlI]

I definitely agree with you but as someone who’s more interested in the vocal synth side of vocaloid (beyond the characters) could you elaborate more on this?

Sure!

Over Vocaloid's history, good tuning has rarely correlated with popularity. Some of our most successful producers were notorious for poor/minimal tuning, with really good tuning on original songs being a relative rarity. Casual fans don't mind, because like all forms of audio engineering, recognising good tuning requires training your ears. So the average listener doesn't notice tuning unless it's altered in an obvious way. If you don't know what tuning is, you won't be listening for it.

Have you ever gone back to your old favourites, and been surprised by how badly tuned they were? When many of us first got into Vocaloid, we listened to poorly tuned songs without it affecting our experience.

This makes tuning the cherry on top of a good song. If it's not there, it doesn't limit the music significantly, but it does add something special for those who appreciate it. Like many artforms, tuning is something dedicated people do for the love of it.

*​

This is going to differ slightly for everyone, but if I were to order the things in a Vocaloid song that people (in general) appear to respond to the most, it would be:

1. Composition
2. Arrangement
3. Mixing
4. Prosody, in the sense of rhythm and melody. (Does the melody change where a human voice would naturally change pitch in a sentence? Are the words spaced in a natural sounding rhythm? If you want a robotic sound, are you de-emphasising this?)
5. Effects (DAW)
6. Lyrics
7. Tuning

For tuning itself, I think one of the most critical parts is making sure the correct part of the word is stressed (in human speech we emphasis certain syllables), which I haven't seen mentioned too often.

 

[crtstatic]

If I may be allowed to add my opinions on tuning:

I don’t believe that tuning is an ABSOLUTELY important part of making a song or cover. For UTAU, yeah, I can understand why its stressed that you tune, because covers can sound awful w/o any tuning sometimes, but for Vocaloid, because it sounds smooth, i don't think that pitch bends are needed as much. You can still make something sound good with the other parameters. Plus, mixing can make or break a song. I’ve mixed songs horribly before, and believe me, they sounded bad.

Also, from my experience, the parameters are NEAR impossible for me to learn. THATS why i don't tune in Vocaloid

Anyway thanks for reading my ramble lol

 

[Krin]

Not having good tuning isn't a bad thing though, I'd rather have an untuned but well produced/mixed track than the opposite.

Yes yes yesss!! Mixing and tuning feel equally important to me. (Mixing might actually lead this by a tiny bit??? Now that I think about it.) But obviously the opinion's gonna vary from person to person and their separate interests within the community.

• Mixing, personally feels important because without proper mixing, no matter how elaborate the tuning is, if the voice doesn't fit with the instrumental then it's gonna sound gross!!! On the other hand, good mixing with bland tuning isn't a turn off at all, it doesn't make it sound bad (and if I like the actual song a lot then I'll usually still enjoy listening to it regardless of how well done the tuning is) but it doesn't pull me in the same way/as much as an elaborately tuned song. But elaborate tuning does NOT make up for bad mixing. So therefore, maybe in a more "musically smart" pov I'd say mixing > tuning. But tuning is still a v big interest of mine so the two are closely equaled!!!
• Tuning is equally important in my eyes because it's the main force that pulls me in as I listen. (I say in my eyes because I think the majority of Vocaloid/UTAU/vocal-synth fans don't see tuning as much of a big deal as those of us who get really into tuning. It's more of a personal interests thing.) ALSO!! I think those of us who actually use vocal-synths, our ears are more trained to hear "good tuning VS boring tuning" because we've had to learn how to tune to a certain degree. We know what we like to hear. Tuning and working with voicebank is probably the #1 thing that's got my interest in the community and it's the thing I enjoy the most out of, so I think every time I listen to an original or cover I'm subconsciously listening closely to the producer's tuning choices...? So that's where my tuning bias comes in, I'm picky

Have you ever gone back to your old favourites, and been surprised by how badly tuned they were? When many of us first got into Vocaloid, we listened to poorly tuned songs without it affecting our experience.

I loved this because I know exactly how it feels!! It's SO surprising when you find a cover of a song you really liked back when you were new, listen to it again expecting to slap but it's um... not as good as you remember :( like every Yokune Ruko kire cover I liked back in 2015 ever lmfaofk;laskl; sigh...