Unpopular Opinions

[ikaroll]

I think the important thing to consider is that any synth can sound bad. Even the easiest banks can sound rough when not used correctly. I’ve heard some good uses of Miku NT, and its tuning and mixing thats part of making her sound good.

but I do feel that the music is often far from being the main interest in the community and that's a bit disappointing.

Well when the majority of the fandom is kids who like anime, and the fact that Vocaloid is a $200+ synth that not many people can afford (I’m lucky enough to have been able to buy my own Vocaloids), its kind of expected

it just makes more sense to have simple designs as opposed to complicated ones, considering that vocal synth characters are going to be drawn by many, many people.

Exactly! One reason I haven’t drawn her yet is because of how many small details she had. Its the same problem I have with Miku (although I tend to simplify her design) and other loids like Yanhe and Xin Hua. Theres too many details.

 

[EPROM]

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[lIlI]

I think the best designs are ones where the big shapes are simple and clear, supplemented with subtle details to act as 'Easter eggs' for observant fans to find.

To use Miku as an example (I think the popularity of her design speaks to its quality), her references to technology and instruments are a fun to spot. I didn't realise she had lights on her knees for years, now I appreciate them each time they're included. But they are secondary to Miku's overall silhouette: blue pigtails and a monochrome uniform. Because the details fade to the background, she is easy to understand, remember, and recognise. You don't need to draw the piano keys on her socks or the lights on her headphones to make her 'Miku'.

However, these details are important. Even when unnoticed, they subconsciously make the design appear more finished and thoughtful: they add depth. When designs lack details, I feel like something is missing. Good detailing doesn't add clutter - but it does add polish.

 

[morrysillusion]

to say something in relation to designs and such, i really wish to see more western designs in box art/character design. anime-style has really taken hold of the vocal synth scene and its fine, it makes sense, when so many of these voices are in fact japanese voices and are probably first aimed at the japanese fans always, that expect anime art-- but i guess a huge issue in why i even wish for more american/western art styles in designs is because we lack english vocals anyways, and the ones we have were hopping on the anime style hype train anyways.
im kind of surprised yamaha hasnt taken the reigns and thrown out more "professional" vocals that lack anime artwork in combo with V5 (which yes, they did release those new V5 vocals with the release of V5 but theyve been dead silent since- id expect something by now lol) but i think the market has been so saturated by this way of presentation that there is more risk with trying to break the mold... vocaloids dont sell a lot and its costly to produce, so this feels like a never ending cycle of hoping fan interest hold them up and not breaking away from that. vocaloid's audience is a weird mix of fandom that wants cute designs, producers who will use those designs to promote music, and then a different kind of producer (generally western, which imo was always seemed like the intended audience since the early days of vocaloid) who wouldnt wanna touch that voice with a 10 foot pole because of the designs. and i know that its hard for fandom kids to accept that anime designs dont always make these products, products. and that way back in those early days this was very much just a revolutionary product for the pro music community, not caring about designs in any form.

in the end id love to see some more toony or not-anime-adjacent art styles in designs for english voices. it doesnt mean i dont like 'fandom' or anime designs- they have their own space for love, in a different kinda way. id like to see different art styles at least, like western styles tend to have much more simple designs, and id like to see characters that dont have a billion little random pointless details/over complex weird designed outfits on to them lol. seriously theres so many vocaloids i cant ever imagine drawing myself- like Eleanor, Sachiko, Una, flower v4&talk, maika, luka, Akane/Aoi- to name a few that i find too complex to reproduce easily. there are some pretty decent engloid designs, and more simple japanese ones are well- but i just want to see engloids break away from basically copying what makes japanese loids popular....even though thats what gives them the attention/money they want, and so its hard to expect this to ever happen unless they a company goes the leon/lola/tonio/prima route again and doesnt aim it in the interest of fandom kids at all (which i also would honestly like to see again)

 

[Stardust]

Oh big fat agree on her not sounding like her V2 at all. I remember in the first days of it's beta release ( or whatever that was ) people were saying how much she sounds like her V2 and I was wondering if we were listening to the same vb whether you find her pleasing to listen to or not is another topic but in terms of her being a recreation of her V2...well I think they failed pretty hard so far, imo this is the most un-Miku sounding Miku out of all her vbs. I genuinely think that if they wanted her to sound ""as Miku-ish as possible"" putting her on different engine was number one mistake. To me it feels like Crypton was trying to fix something that wasn't broken in the 1st place.

And just a heads up, this doesn't reflect on like...my overall feelings on Miku NT. I'm persoanlly excited to see CFM experimenting with new stuff even if I happen to not like the end results so far and I have fingers crossed for them but I'm just stating that for the goal they have in mind, I don't think their actions make much sense.

You hit the nail on the head with "un-Miku sounding". If you showed me a song utilizing her NT without telling me it's Miku, I would have thought it was a new voicebank altogether. I didn't even consider how the engine change might affect the vocals until you pointed that out. I know V5 is expensive to produce on, but part of me wishes we got to hear this V2 recreation on V5. I've always wondered what a recreation of Meiko or Kaito's V1 would be like on modern technology, but with how Miku is turning out, I don't have much hope for it.
Some people theorized back when her character/voice guidelines were released for NT that Crypton did this so they could have more control over Miku, instead of the desktop musician approach Yamaha wants since Crypton's reason for moving engines was V5 caused Miku to "not sound like herself", which seems like a strange excuse since we've heard Yanhe V5 and she still sounds like Yanhe. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.
On the bright side, perhaps people can use Miku NT to make a distinct sounding Haku. Though I don't know how popular her and Neru are anymore. Now that I think about it, perhaps Crypton will finally make them into real vocals.

I'm excited as well despite my disappointment with Miku NT. I'm still hoping perhaps we'll get some new vocals instead of just Crypton updates.

I think the best designs are ones where the big shapes are simple and clear, supplemented with subtle details to act as 'Easter eggs' for observant fans to find.

To use Miku as an example (I think the popularity of her design speaks to its quality), her references to technology and instruments are a fun to spot. I didn't realise she had lights on her knees for years, now I appreciate them each time they're included. But they are secondary to Miku's overall silhouette: blue pigtails and a monochrome uniform. Because the details fade to the background, she is easy to understand, remember, and recognise. You don't need to draw the piano keys on her socks or the lights on her headphones to make her 'Miku'.

However, these details are important. Even when unnoticed, they subconsciously make the design appear more finished and thoughtful: they add depth. When designs lack details, I feel like something is missing. Good detailing doesn't add clutter - but it does add polish.

This post sums it up very wellSilhouette's are a huge part of designing. Search "how to design characters" on google, and the first thing they will point out is to make a distinct silhouette before going into details or colors. This is harder to achieve with more realistic styles, like the anime style vocal synths use mainly, since this technique is used more for cartoons, but it's still quite possible.
In the end, it's all about finding a good balance with details, and not having too little, or too many.

 

[lIlI]

Thanks Stardust! I think a good test for design flexibility is: Can you remove details without it feeling like a new design?

With Miku, you can remove every detail and her design is still iconic. This means you can translate her into any style, basic/baroque. It's part of the reason she has so many derivatives. Water hair? Still Miku. Insect claws? Still Miku. Green or blue? It's still Miku. I've seen fanart that's almost abstract in its simplicity, but still immediately recognisable as the same character Kei drew.

To use poor Eleanor as a counter-example, her design has a lot of elements, all treated with roughly the same level of importance, in highly contrasting colours. It is hard to tell what to classify as details and what to classify as her main silhouette. To create a simpler design, you need to make her look like she's wearing a whole new outfit. She is multiple designs in one - you can create at least three completely different looks by removing layers. It's a type of character design that definitely has its place (extravagant figurines come to mind), but isn't the most practical option for a mascot.

 

[morrysillusion]

[...]Can you remove details without it feeling like a new design?

[...]To use poor Eleanor as a counter-example, her design has a lot of elements, all treated with roughly the same level of importance, in highly contrasting colours. It is hard to tell what to classify as details and what to classify as her main silhouette. To create a simpler design, you need to make her look like she's wearing a whole new outfit. She is multiple designs in one - you can create at least three completely different looks by removing layers. It's a type of character design that definitely has its place (extravagant figurines come to mind), but isn't the most practical option for a mascot.

10000% agree on this, as having mentioned my dislike for eleanor's design earlier. and being able to simplify a design easily, but leaving it recognizable, is probably the most important thing that leads me to not liking eleanor's look. theres too many 'important' level items that taking them away doesnt look right, and when shes stripped of those layers and objects, it just doesnt really look like a character anymore. in comparison to miku, she has a defined silhouette with a clear color choice and little details that can be ignored while retaining the same look (and this can be said about the cyprton loids in general with their clear-cut outfits and colors). lots of details can certainly be nice to look at one the cover of the box or in some promo art, but as said- its important that you can take those away/ignore them while still knowing exactly what youre looking at.

 

[Miss Otaku]

Some people might not agree on this...
- Rin and Len can be anything you want them to be
- Engloids are also great
- Fukase isnt weird looking or ugly, his character design is great and hes cute
- Sure Kaito sounds like Kermit the frog..... b-but i dont think hes really dumb on how people portray him
- Honestly, Gumi's outfit is kinda cute

 

[ikaroll]

Unless its a power bank or a whisper or softer bank, I don’t think there needs to be at least 5 appends or more for a single voicebank. For example, Gumi’s power and whisper appends actually make sense to be there, since they can Be used for a more powerful or softer voice type. But are Adult and Sweet really necessary??

 

[Scarlet Illusion]

But are Adult and Sweet really necessary??

I find adult to be totally unnecessary (and difficult to use), but sweet? I actually really love it! To me it’s a nice softer bank and makes a great tone controller for Native if you use it for XSY!!

Miku’s appends, though… I find that some of them are borderline useless.

 

[DefiantKitsune]

Honestly I think no vocal synth needs more than 4 appends, EXCEPT Miku- she can slide with her current 5 (excluding the two which were dropped).

The main reason being they start to lack variety or any meaningful addition.
And then there's Kaito V3, who manages to have 3 Japanese voicebanks that have nearly no variety within them. lul

See more

Miku Sweet is important and can't be replaced by soft and i will die on this hill

 

[frankensalad]

I actually really love the sound of Gumi Adult, but I also completely understand why everyone finds it so pointless. Hell, it barely even sounds like Gumi. They could have almost sold it as a completely different character.

 

[Stigbn]

I've only had Gumi (with all the voices) for a month or so, but so far, 'Mellow Adult' 'is close to being my favourite.

 

[Stardust]

I suspect the only reason Gumi has so many appends is because Internet wanted to cash-in on the XSY hype. With a V4 editor all the appends are probably very useful, but if you don't have it, or primarily use V5 editor, I can definitely see them being useless.

While we're talking about appends, I have to chime in about Kaito and Meiko's Whisper appends. You can achieve the same effect with their Soft/Dark banks in my experience with a bit of tuning, so I find the Whisper banks a bit useless personally. It also took away the chance for Kaito to have a Power VB, which he really needed. Straight just isn't strong enough for some songs.
I haven't gotten to use the Whisper banks much however, so perhaps I'll change my mind.

 

[Blue Of Mind]

While we're talking about appends, I have to chime in about Kaito and Meiko's Whisper appends. You can achieve the same effect with their Soft/Dark banks in my experience with a bit of tuning, so I find the Whisper banks a bit useless personally. It also took away the chance for Kaito to have a Power VB, which he really needed. Straight just isn't strong enough for some songs.
I haven't gotten to use the Whisper banks much however, so perhaps I'll change my mind.

I'm still mad Crypton didn't give Kaito a Power bank, because I can't tell the difference between his Whisper and Soft banks most of the time. (Come to think of it, I struggle to tell the difference between Rin Warm and Sweet, and Len Cool and Serious too.)

 

[Stardust]

I'm still mad Crypton didn't give Kaito a Power bank, because I can't tell the difference between his Whisper and Soft banks most of the time. (Come to think of it, I struggle to tell the difference between Rin Warm and Sweet, and Len Cool and Serious too.)

I'm still upset as well. I don't know why Meiko got a Power VB, but not him. Perhaps his VP was unable to provide samples for a Power VB?
Me neither. They have a very slight difference in how he pronounces some words, but that's all I can notice. Hopefully his NT release will fix this and give him the Power VB he needs.
I do as well. Warm Sounds like Power with softer tuning, and the same happens with Cool.
I also noticed that, after listening a bit, Meiko's Dark VB sounds like Straight with softer tuning. So I suppose it's more similar to Straight then it is to Whisper, which is surprisingly distinct. I must have misremembered how it sounded, as I haven't listened or used Meiko in quite some time.

 

[msmsmsm]

I'm still upset as well. I don't know why Meiko got a Power VB, but not him. Perhaps his VP was unable to provide samples for a Power VB?

Kaito did have an existing power voicebank recorded (according to WAT) but was scrapped for whatever reason. another thing is, samples even exist of it which makes it more disappointing... it would've been a much nicer to have a set of soft/neutral/power vocals - which would make for a way more versatile append package - than two incredibly similar whisper VBs and a neutral VB.

So yeah, I agree with all of you on this. I have a feeling he could've made more of a splash with a power VB. Of course there's exciter with V5, but that's not gonna give authentic/quality results like the actual recordings would've.

 

[Stardust]

Kaito did have an existing power voicebank recorded (according to WAT) but was scrapped for whatever reason. another thing is, samples even exist of it which makes it more disappointing... it would've been a much nicer to have a set of soft/neutral/power vocals - which would make for a way more versatile append package - than two incredibly similar whisper VBs and a neutral VB.

So yeah, I agree with all of you on this. I have a feeling he could've made more of a splash with a power VB. Of course there's exciter with V5, but that's not gonna give authentic/quality results like the actual recordings would've.

I never heard of this, this is incredible. Even for a (perhaps unfinished)V2 VB, there's still a lot of power to it. I can understand scrapping the V2 version, seeing as they moved his upgrade to V3, but why scrap it for the V3 upgrade? Seems like a poor business decision since, as you said, made him much less versatile.

I agree that a Power VB would have helped his popularity. Out of the covers and originals I've seen from the upgraded Cryptonloids, Kaito has the least, and it is easy to see why.

I did not know Exciter could give power to a voice. I will have to try it sometime.

 

[___]

V5 nerd coming in to say that yeah, exciter is picky about which vbs it wants to work with and how too! I recommend using the Power Punk style as it gives more consistent and quality results when you wanna add power to a vb!

Kaito did have an existing power voicebank recorded (according to WAT) but was scrapped for whatever reason. another thing is, samples even exist of it which makes it more disappointing... it would've been a much nicer to have a set of soft/neutral/power vocals - which would make for a way more versatile append package - than two incredibly similar whisper VBs and a neutral VB.

My guess is that they weren't confident in the vb? Ik this is a wip theyre showing but compared to the rest of the vbs shown Kaitos power vb sounds hella rough.

 

[msmsmsm]

V5 nerd coming in to say that yeah, exciter is picky about which vbs it wants to work with and how too! I recommend using the Power Punk style as it gives more consistent and quality results when you wanna add power to a vb!

as a fellow V5 main, I'd recommend being wary of the consonants when you're drawing it in the parameter thingy. it makes them fuzzy and unpleasant (I usually draw it and then dip it to 0 when it hits a consonant). It's a finnicky parameter, but well worth it when you find a sweet spot. I've managed to add significant rasp and grit to a few voicebanks like CUL, and the parameter elevates Lily so much!

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OKAY, for an unpopular opinion... The Meika's are seriously horrible to work with - Hime in particular. Hime sounds as if they went through 700 rounds of EQ before they even made it to the synth. Mikoto just feels like they're lacking in quality, especially when compared to Gynoid's previous voicebanks.