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IO+

IO+

Resonance47
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  • IO+
    Mix practicing, with rock song, there is 2 part with difference approach, first one is more aggressive, second one is very close to original.

    Original song from niki



    Rock song is not my strong suit so i think it's nice to step outside of comfort zone for better learning.
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    IO+
    IO+
    Thank you for the feedback response!

    The first track i put more emphasis on attack of the snare and oomph of the kicks, i feel like guitar is quite dominant so i pull mid frequency out of the side channel by a tiny bit like -0.4/-0.6 dB (very wide Q) and mid channel out a little bit just 1dB (Q factor is a little wide) i think attack of the snare and meat of the kicks should come up (which it does).
    I still think snare need a little more work but the song itself is quite full already and it will get brighter when it louder so i don't have much option. I decided to use clipper to chop the peak of the snare to get more attack. This may sound counter-intuitive, chopping the click sound off to get more click. . . but it work.

    The second track i didn't do much, mostly a tiny eq correction and done, this track is already great from the start. I don't think putting more plugins would improve anything so i leave it as it is.
    AddictiveCUL (Add)
    AddictiveCUL (Add)
    In the first one I feel the sound is more fuller, I guess you would need a little more of work on the vocals to make them sit well in the mix, but it's definetly sounds like the "right choice".

    The second one I feel like it is easy to hear that there is a spot for the voice to sit on, what is pretty good, but I like the huge instrumentals more.

    Both are incredible tho, love your mixing skills! *3

    Btw, I always follows the rule "Don't mess with what is already mixed" bc I'm a newbie. But hearing your results I think I should try messing with it too XD Thanks for the insight.
    IO+
    IO+
    Thank you for the feedback! The first one is sound very similar to the cover i made Here and i realize that i made a mistake, so i start to practicing with this song again.

    Btw, I always follows the rule "Don't mess with what is already mixed" bc I'm a newbie. But hearing your results I think I should try messing with it too XD Thanks for the insight.
    Click to expand...
    My advice is to believe in yourself, make a move and commit to the decision you made. I made a mistake too. . . A lot of it. Just like anyone else's but i respect my decision and if some thing wrong i will or at least try to correct my mistake.
    Let's say, you spend sometime mixing a song and in the end it's doesn't sound right, you can simply remove all plugins!
    IO+
    Piapro editor and new version of vocaloid still stuck with a crude CC values, There is some claims with one of the developer's inside interview book (2020-2021). That old CC values is more than enough for fine adjustment. In my opinion they are not wrong but these 80s standard won't last long anyway. Even a free editor like OpenUtau they already improve the parameters significantly similar to SynthV that the parameters have such a massive headroom to the point that "stairs step" no longer exists. Isn't that a tiny details is what we are so obsessed with?

    It's not a big deal however. Sometimes i just wonder why they just stuck there. It must have a reasons.
    IO+
    The beautiful part of hobbies is to take a sweet time to learn and actually enjoy whatever they like and make a thoughtful investment for what they really need but these day i feel like peoples focusing on buying what their community expect them to buy. Hype can make peoples desperate.

    It's not my business to tell peoples how to use their saving. I just think that it's crazy how peoples today are so desperate for attention.

    I didn't mean or attempt to rant or venting out, just curious. What and why it go or it end up this way.
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    MillyAqualine
    MillyAqualine
    Also the double standards that has been with loops, where some seem to be able to use loads of them in a song yet people like me have tried to do it in the past in a first time to finally have a beautiful music and learn how to align things so it doesn't end up as a warbled mess, and we were said it was bad to do so (again those were UTAU elitists so that doesn't even surprise me to see such an inconsistent mindset)

    Add to this the fact it's the same genres that tend to take the lead because they're the most spammed and you get users wanting desperately to get noticed so they go the extra mile to appeal instead of doing what they really want to do at core (except for those who love said genres, then it doesn't revolve around them since they're already in their elements so it isn't the same approach)



    Also while I won't deny I've kinda overdid it lately for the past one year and a half, it still kinda makes me ill-at-ease to see loads of sales even though it's way better than in the past since it permits people to buy their synths without sacrifying their monthly wage or wait for billion of years to be able to buy the synth they want.... But yeah, while some like me can hold back and say "well, too bad for X/Y/Z I will buy them when i can have a better situation since it's gonna be too tough for the on-going period" as I've been doing since my last purchase back in late February because of life, but other people may ruin themselves, and I've noticed some were even younger (some are barely out of minor age) splurge loads of money at a bigger frequence than i've been doing in my massive buying short period and yeah, as you said people do whatever they want with their earnings and savings, but everyone should keep in my mind what they buy can be considered as a sort of luxury item like a jewel or very fine-end delicacy
    IO+
    IO+
    I forgot to mention that this is not just about vocal-synths relate problem though, it seem to happen to bascially any community.

    Add to this the fact it's the same genres that tend to take the lead because they're the most spammed and you get users wanting desperately to get noticed so they go the extra mile to appeal instead of doing what they really want to do at core (except for those who love said genres, then it doesn't revolve around them since they're already in their elements so it isn't the same approach)
    Click to expand...
    It seem to be this way, unfotunately.
    In my opinion if people have put more faith in their style and stick to their own road map, it will more worth it in the end. I teach a lot of peoples, guide them, push them whenever i can either directly or indirectly but not many people really success. I just wanted to speak out of bottom of my heart here, because 95% of people i help they don't have the will and commitment to make a different. Commitment is very important and i can't stress this enough. I teach peoples how to mixes, how to make musics. They learn and do pretty well actually but they didn't even try to make the best out of it. Although, it just a covers song. Sure, there is a disposable quality to cover songs but that doesn't mean they can't make the best mix or at least try to make the best one. I always said, treat the listeners with utmost respect by give them the best listening experience. Hell..no. They don't even respect the deadline. Never finish anything. I feel like it's a complete waste of time if i try to lend a hand.
    IO+
    IO+
    Something about vocal-synth/music producers community, that whenever a newcomers asking about what vbs or plugins they should get, i feel like i'm the only one who say, NO. Try the free one first. I just want peoples to asking themselves first and decided that this is the hobby that they are actually looking for. I saw a lot of teenage newcomers that just wanted to be the part of community with little understanding and then people start to pouring list of vbs/plugins they should get, and i was like "are you guys crazy?" it just so wrong on many level.

    I hate to see people throw money at problem or buy their way out. This is not how it work.
    IO+
    I heard or saw people say about "engine noise" in vocal-synths a lot but do you know how it actually sounds? can you describe how it's sounds like? and is that really a big deal?


    I'm curious. . . What's your thoughts?
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    Maribelle
    Maribelle
    I don’t have much of a technical opinion on it but I can offer my own experience I am deaf in my right ear with very limited hearing abilities (like none) but with Cevios old engine noise it used to flare my tinnitus terribly for a few days after like around 10 mins of listening to cevio covers where it wasn’t edited out lol, also had the issue less so with every other vocal synth but not as bad e.e I think it’s more so a frequencies thing for me? Like I can’t recall anything aside from a metallic twang in my good ear but my bad one tries to shut down :x
    IO+
    IO+
    It's not far off from what i expected. Seem like our problem is more or less the same.

    Any vocal-synths have some glitch/artifact into it(AI singer have this problem too) like crack, pop, click, buzzing, metallic sounds, it's quite a complicate topic to talk because every voicebanks are different, some voicebanks are prone to such problems like Luka for an example, meanwhile some voicebanks that i know and used like Miku, IA, VY1 are pretty much glitch free.

    In my experience most of these engine noise problems can be easily fix without tools, you can trim it or cut it in any DAW but some problems is very difficult or next to impossible to fix because these artifact sound already inside the material.

    Keep in mind that these problem just simply disappeared when listening in context of the song. Well. . . most most of the time.
    IO+
    IO+
    I don’t have much of a technical opinion on it but I can offer my own experience I am deaf in my right ear with very limited hearing abilities (like none) but with Cevios old engine noise it used to flare my tinnitus terribly for a few days after like around 10 mins of listening to cevio covers where it wasn’t edited out lol, also had the issue less so with every other vocal synth but not as bad e.e I think it’s more so a frequencies thing for me? Like I can’t recall anything aside from a metallic twang in my good ear but my bad one tries to shut down :x
    Click to expand...
    I understand your feeling. The untreated sound in some vbs can be painful to listen too due to excessive fundamental tone or excessive sizzling sounds, very tiring to listen, these can easily trigger tinnitus. I'm prone to 600hz to 2khz these frequency sound offended to me.
    IO+
    I think judging voicebanks from demo is like judging book from cover. Why don't people just try it themselves before give an opinion. Bashing vbs without even try is not cool.
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    wrong_thyme
    wrong_thyme
    i get the sentiment, but it's kinda difficult for ppl to try every voice themselves when not every vb has a trial version :x
    VyNancyV6
    VyNancyV6
    I mean you have a point...

    but why does Books have cover in first place?
    IO+
    IO+
    Wait. Not every vb has trials? which one?
    If that so, i think people can still search original songs or covers on internet. Although, some new vb might take a little longer for people to start using it.

    @VyNancyV6 The "true" purpose of book cover is to protect the pages behind that cover. Simple as the name suggest, but we put design on it to make it more appealing and increase sale. Meanwhile it letting you know what type of book lies within the pages and whether it's for you using some quick visual cues.

    The way peoples bashing vb is like calling any DAW suck a** because they don't know how to use them and they don't want to spend time learning it either. I find that unfair to any companies, at least give them a chance, try them thoroughly and then giving an opinion.

    I use to hate Reaper but the more i learn about it the more i love it. Although it's not perfect, but i accepted the way how it work as it is.
    IO+
    How a melodyne can cost this much, especially the full version, is like 699-899usd. . .
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    MillyAqualine
    MillyAqualine
    IKR, like FL Studio if you want the most needed plugins (at least they have cheaper yet limited formula, but still....)
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    IO+
    IO+
    In my opinion, FL complete bundle price is reasonable (more towards the expensive side) it have tons of plugins, instrument and goodies like soundbank pack etc, but the price of melodyne is questionable. I mean.... At the core it just a plugin(or standalone) that made purposely to fix someone else's problem.

    699-899usd in some country is more than enough to build a decent studio.

    Although some DAW like S1 their best version is like 299usd(iirc) and the big name DAW like cubase, the best version is cost like 600usd. It's still cheaper than melodyne i find that very funny.
    IO+
    Do you guys use voice parameters inside singer editor? (vocaloid4)
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    mobius017
    mobius017
    Not too much. I feel like you can probably get a better result if you do, but I don't tune very much yet.

    My general theory is that plugins should be used to make the largest adjustments to how a voice sounds (like, overall timbre), and the parameters are for making the more organic variations that occur during the course of the song.

    Happy to hear other ideas, through, because my vocal manipulation probably could be a lot better.
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    IO+
    IO+
    I've been using it for the past few years, i notice that it is exactly the same thing as parameters below the piano roll. At first, i don't know why it should exist since it offer no advantage over the control parameters below the piano roll, but now. I think it is the most convenient thing because i probably spend less than 10seconds to set the values and it will stay that way for the entire songs and i can save it as voice presets too which is a huge time saving.

    @mobius017 I think it's all about workflow, i prefer to shape the tone during mixing but some users prefer to manipulate their favourite VBs inside vocaloid editor as @Mika mentioned, but in my opinion, i find it work best if i combined this two methods together.

    Some parameters like Breathiness and Clearness i don't really like it at first (i don't think it sound good at all. . .), but my opinion has changed a lot, it actually very useful.
    i wish i could have some params like exciter, expression in vocaloid 4 but that's not gonna happen.

    Some voicebanks will have the most benefits from these control parameters adjustment as Mika mentioned it really helps.
    I truly believe that using a few voicebanks that you know them well and can you control it like your hands is the best parth to go.
    mobius017
    mobius017
    Oh, re-reading this, I just realized that you meant the overall singer parameters rather than the tuning area under the piano roll. Yeah, the overall parameters are all about making presets.

    I'm pretty sure those stack with what you do in the tuning area, too, so you can push a parameter value twice as far. (Going that far might not be a good idea most of the time, but I'm pretty sure that was how I observed it working.)
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    IO+
    Using hi-fi headphones for mixing is not bad at all actually, because of how accurate they are when it come to emulate the ideal listening room.

    A common believes that hi-if pairs are always colored, which is not entirely true. (unless you're using sony xb stuff) Although you need to get used to it but i don't think it's gonna be difficult because you probably listen to it everyday 24/7. If you already own a pairs then you probably don't need a monitoring headphone.
    IO+
    I find that my plugins toolbox getting smaller and smaller every years.
    3 years ago i have like 200-ish plugins, now i only have 22 plugin left and most of them can be replace by stock.

    Do your plugin lists getting smaller too?
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    IO+
    IO+
    @AddictiveCUL (Add) I agree that having too much plugins is kinda counterproductive, having so many option can negatively impact the speed of work.

    Most of the plugin in my toolbox are very easy to use, like 2-4 knobs or 2 sliders and all i do is just crank it and let plugin do all the work. I find that it work best for me.

    I watch some audio engineer guy on YT and they have something like 2000+ of plugins.
    My brain probably exploded if i have that much plugins.

    @bibbs I think linux can be good alternative, but finding a decent plugin or people who developed plugins for linux can be difficult.
    InstallGentoo
    InstallGentoo
    My plugin set just increased to 20 some plugins and a bunch of free stuff added to it. I'm not experienced so I worry I might be missing something somewhere in the production proceess. I know I won't be using like 5 of the plugins and maybe even over a dozen on any one song.
    I like to imagine they are there like for that one time I really need that Star screw set or something out of left field so to speeak.
    Like most synths work the same way but there may be a sidechain or a modulus function that make it sound uniquely different. Not as a replacement for another synth but different for a unique sound. Maybe why I'm into distortion plugins and wobblers because you don't need entire different synth for it and you can make very different sound.
    This is from a Beginner
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    IO+
    IO+
    Sounds like you are doing sound design stuff, so if im correct then you need a lot more plugin than normal mixing work for sure.
    IO+
    Why do people who use studio monitor tried to chasing a flat frequency response? It doesn't make much sense to me, and these magic flat freq resp doesn't exist either.
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    MagicalMiku
    MagicalMiku
    :mell_lili: :kanatomell_lili:totally agree! also, the word "monitor" explains it all: like a pc display monitor, a headphone/speaker studio monitor can be adjusted to the user needs/likes. they have a very good audio reproduction, almost in a "neutral" way, which as you said is different from a flat frequency. And then there is also the audio signature of every brand, for example a Sony headphone will always sound very different from a Audio Technica, Yamaha, and so on. I think is so important to have some different products to try: while studio monitor are great during the production process (being a new song, video, remix, cover, etc..), then the listening process of the final result is better with more products of different brands, and they don't need to be the expensive ones, a good song is always a good song:haiyi_lili_smile:
    IO+
    IO+
    Exactly as you describe, any playback system that have word "monitoring" or "reference" on the nameplate are (generally) more accurate when it come to impulse response and frequency response between left and right channel, it doesn't matter if it has flat frequency or not. Although word "natural" is a bit sketchy to say (more like a opinion or subjective) but any playback system that considered natural sounding, most of them have smooth frequency response that look like a tilt eq. Although this is such a subjective topic since people perceived sounds differently.

    Being studio monitor or mixing headphones does not mean it will have flat freq or natural sounding for the entire spectrums however, some playback system are purposely tune for specific frequency and it may not sounds pleasing at all.

    There is a tons of examples of playback systems that have such a bad reputation for their horrible and painful sounding, i give a few name for example like sony 7506, yamaha ns10, yamaha hs8 etc, etc. I own some of yamaha headphone monitor too and it just sound as bad as my yamaha hs6, but these equipment are sounds bad for a reasons and if listen carefully these studio monitor mostly tune for mid-range. Not surprised that it sound like a beat up cardboard box, but these "bad sounding" monitor are so so good at the job and their only one purpose job is to tell the listeners the truth. If song have a problem, it will tell listeners right away.

    Then again, you are absolutely right about using multiple playback system for reference, and it don't need to be expensive.

    A good song will stay that way, as you said.
    IO+
    IO+
    I hope people don't get triggered when i say the product they worshipping are bad. Just in case, i didn't mean to disrespectful anyone or brand.
    IO+
    Although xsy in vocaloid 4 can morph a voice by design. Though the manuals say it morphing sound in gradual and progressive way but the way they do is crude and inefficient, so they drop this concept in v5 and v6, but as the editor and coding getting more advance and more efficient, why yamaha still refuse to put it in their newest editor?
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    IO+
    IO+
    What is the fandloids? Sorry but i'm not familiar with this word.
    MillyAqualine
    MillyAqualine
    @IO+ Fanloids mean any 'loid (especially those back in the 2009-2010 era when there were very few Vocaloids available) that are derivating from existing vocaloids (ranging from regular genderbents like KAIKO or MIKUO to variations like the Shion brothers or Haku, Neru, Tako Luka, and even vocaloids that have nothing to do with the voice sources they come from like Mouya Metene or the specific Annoyloids series starting with Kagami Kawaiine using gackpoid as source voice)

    Now UTAU had gained more attraction through the years, and the appearance of other synths like Cevio, deepvocal, synthv etc now some people feel like there's no use anymore to create fanloids ; but it doesn't avoid people to do so (on my side i've imagined two genderbents called Maria Gloria and Cosmos, respectively based on TONIO and galaco, as well as vaguely imagined Miguel and Oscar for MAIKA/Ona though those ones never had a design)
    IO+
    IO+
    Well, that still kinda weird but interesting one. I think fanmade vocaloid have nothing to do with yamaha itself in anyway. Even though peoples steal the vocaloid sdk and create their own voicebanks and go as far as creating an activation license for the voicebanks they made (I don't understand how they can call themselves a fans or enthusiastic group, these are thief behavior) but yamaha seem to ignore it.

    Just to remind that yamaha is such a gigantic companies like Mitsubishi, They made a LOT of stuff from Big bike, engine, sports boat, microchip, semiconductors, mixing consoles, sports equipment to flute for 5 yo kids.

    I guess that's the main reason why they're slow and fall behind, because vocalsynths is not the main priority for yamaha.
    IO+
    Why people's are so offended when the products they use get criticize, even though it is a constructive criticism.

    It's like any slightest negative opinion mean attempt to attack their identity.
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    IO+
    IO+
    I think everyone has their own ego. Pridefulness and personal worth is not a bad thing in my opinion but i find that even the truth is sitting in front of their faces they just simply ignore facts. Not only that, they took it personally and fought back like there is no tomorrow.

    I'm confuse.
    AddictiveCUL (Add)
    AddictiveCUL (Add)
    @IO+ Ego is not bad in on itself, but it doesn't mean it don't have any bad side to it. If someone associates their identity with certain subject they will defend it with everything they have because they feel not like it's a critic to the subject, but to themselves.
    IO+
    IO+
    I don't think this is my rant topic but i truly disappointed in people's. This make me feel like they reject rational thinking and turn themselves into a mere primate.
    IO+
    Do you guys interested in song's breakdown or full mix breakdown?
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    IO+
    IO+
    I will let my friend know. I'm just translator though, it's not really my mix or my song. Although, feedback seems very low.

    I will inform who interested via inbox since this more like a private class Livestream. A very detailed breakdown (1-2Hrs+).
    AddictiveCUL (Add)
    AddictiveCUL (Add)
    @IO+ I don't have money, I'm poor and too lazy to work! '3' If he does it for free I'm in, but I have to say I guess I'm not his intended public XD
    IO+
    IO+
    Oh, pardon me. I forgot to mentioned that it's completely free, just like any of my service's or any mixing requests I've been done so far, i do it for free. I truly believe in hornor systems.

    We currently using honor systems as i suggested. You can join livestream. Paid or not, it doesn't matter anyway, because we treat everyone equally. However, you can donate whenever you feel like to, She would be really happy if she got some love back.
    IO+

    Tutorial - How to estimate a song’s BPM by ears

    Introduction The purpose of this guide is to help you build a muscle memory, when you have enough experience it will become natural and you will instantly know what BPM of any song you listen to, more accurate with less errors. What to...
    vocaverse.network vocaverse.network

    I try my best to keep it short and straightforward as possible.

    Why it is important to learn how to estimate the song's BPM? since there is a lot of software that can do a calculation or searching online is seem to be more practical.

    The purpose is to build a muscle memory until it become natural. This is a fundamental skill for musician, composer, producer or any music related job, it's the same thing how musician estimate a pitch or keys of the song's.
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    MagicalMiku
    MagicalMiku
    very nice tutorial! and I agree that doing that by ears not only is more satisfying, but in some cases it can be also more accurate compared to a software measurement. especially if the song has a dynamic style, and you know the voca P signature (think of avtechno or pinocchiop unique styles), doing by ears is the way to go :miku_ani_lili: :meiko_ani_lili:
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    IO+
    IO+
    I'm glad this can be useful.

    As you mentioned, there is a lot of song that have tempo fluctuations, some of the song are more subtle, some are more wildly. Although most of the pops song today using static tempo.

    This skill are more or less important depend on the job, if you are working as DJ's or live performer then it is very important to estimate the tempo as accurate as possible (ideally +1/-1 BPM Error tolerance), meanwhile others music related job like composer, producers, audio engineer these skill are less important, since they work in close/private environment but this skill is good to have nonetheless.
    InstallGentoo
    InstallGentoo
    The tempo changes I notice when it changes phrase or section in the more interesting songs. (also a bane for any rhythm game player).
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