VOCALOID What's Wrong with the Western Community of Vocaloid?

[Scarlet Illusion]

Not trying to refute anybody, but I didn't really think Sand Planet was about Vocaloid being like an empty desert? I thought Hachi had stated in an interview with Ryo that it was more about Vocaloid being a sandbox in the sense that anybody can make anything with it??

 

[Nezuh]

Exactly, I didn't understand the popularity of the song (and all the fanart that came out) because of that.

Since we're talking about that, I guess people during Magical Mirai "dance" (english is not my native language, sorry xd) the song out of respect for Miku?
Dancing to a song you don't like just out of respect, would be the most japanese thing ever lol

I guess that explains why they don't look super excited with that one.

 

[ThatGirlMyra]

I'm sure this has been said, but my issue with the Western side to the fandom is how "edgy" everything has to be. 90% of the popular songs I hear include at least ONE of the following:
Death/Suicide
Depression
Anxiety
Drug Usage
Sex
"Deep thoughts" about society
and like... no. I don't really want to listen to that, I came to music to get AWAY from the bad aspects of life, not to drown myself in it. And I don't know if I'm just uber-sensitive or not, considering how popular both Crusher-P and Ghost are. But I HAD to say this.

Sorry for the rant.

 

[Scarlet Illusion]

I'm sure this has been said, but my issue with the Western side to the fandom is how "edgy" everything has to be.

Yeah. I agree with that. I know the Japanese/Eastern side has those things, too, but there’s still a lot more variety than the western side; for every negative or edgy song, there’s several positive ones.

 

[ThatGirlMyra]

Yeah. I agree with that. I know the Japanese/Eastern side has those things, too, but there’s still a lot more variety than the western side; for every negative or edgy song, there’s several positive ones.

Exactly! And I know there are positive songs in the Western side as well, but they seem to get lost much more easily than really any other part of the fandom. It's maddening.

 

[uncreepy]

To be fair, I think a lot of English speaking Vocaloid fans don't find out about English Vocaloid songs/producers until they have been mega fans for a while.

In my case, I didn't know they existed until after having played 2 Project Diva games and actually buying my first Vocaloid. I thought Oliver was the only English language Vocaloid for years as a casual fan. It was hard learning there were other Western producers other than the main ones (Circus-P, Creep-P, Ghost, etc) just by trying to look on Youtube's sidebar. It actually became ridiculously easier to find other producers by talking on twitter/forums and seeing other people's work.

I feel like if we can blame someone for the lack of awareness to happy themed songs and their creators, we could argue that Crypton (for example) could be promoting overseas creators more.

 

[cafenurse]

Yeah, there are a lot of western producers that don't make negative songs (or at least not constantly negative) but they just have a significantly smaller following. There are so few western producers that have large followings, so when they all create songs with similarities it can feel easy to just be like "oh the entire western side is like that". But there are a lot more western producers who aren't as well known who create very different music (Party-P, Quasar P, Marvin Valentin, celestrai, to name a few)

 

[Scarlet Illusion]

Yeah, there are a lot of western producers that don't make negative songs (or at least not constantly negative) but they just have a significantly smaller following. There are so few western producers that have large followings, so when they all create songs with similarities it can feel easy to just be like "oh the entire western side is like that". But there are a lot more western producers who aren't as well known who create very different music (Party-P, Quasar P, Marvin Valentin, celestrai, to name a few)

For sure! It's a shame that it's not easier to find them, but that sure as heck isn't their fault (not that anyone ever said it was), that's on the YouTube algorithm. It tends to do smaller creators dirty. Q-Q
(Also, if anyone knows any producers I should take a look at, let me know! I'd like to support my fellow western producers and find more songs to listen to!)

 

[ThatGirlMyra]

(Also, if anyone knows any producers I should take a look at, let me know! I'd like to support my fellow western producers and find more songs to listen to!)

PLEASE CHECK OUT HIDAOMARI. He (I think it's a he) is a producer that makes SUPER cool songs. Haven't heard from him in awhile, so I hope he's still active.

 

[mikusingularity]

I'm sure this has been said, but my issue with the Western side to the fandom is how "edgy" everything has to be. 90% of the popular songs I hear include at least ONE of the following:
Death/Suicide
Depression
Anxiety
Drug Usage
Sex
"Deep thoughts" about society
and like... no. I don't really want to listen to that, I came to music to get AWAY from the bad aspects of life, not to drown myself in it. And I don't know if I'm just uber-sensitive or not, considering how popular both Crusher-P and Ghost are. But I HAD to say this.

Sorry for the rant.

Could this be the reason why Vocaloid is "niche"?

 

[Scarlet Illusion]

Could this be the reason why Vocaloid is "niche"?

I think the reason why Vocaloid is niche over in the west is because it really doesn't get a lot of promotion over in the west? Consider the amounts of Miku related events and Vocaloid marketing in Japan and then compare it to the west. The West seems to be largely ignored in terms of marketing. Also, and I can't vouch for what things are like in Japan and the rest of the eastern hemisphere, it seems that there's a stranglehold by big corporations on the different creative industries, and they're trying to force people to buy into their stuff. Examples? Look at what has happened to YouTube; what once was a fun site for sharing videos that you've made has now been turned against its creators for the sake of large companies. If videos get copyright claimed/striked, there's a whole lot of things to go through that would be extremely intimidating to smaller creators. These larger corporations tend to bully others, even each other. Taylor Swift recently had her rights to her old music expire, and the rights to the music were bought up by some person affiliated with Justin Beiber; this person forbids Taylor from playing her songs unless she pays what is basically a ransom.

Basically, to the large corporations in the west, everything and everyone is competition. Vocaloid is something that enables us to create we want to hear, and the large companies and corporations don't want that because then we, as the consumers, are not buying into the things that they constantly shove down our throats.

The other issue with Vocaloid in the west (at least where I live, anyways) is that although Vocaloid in itself isn't Japanese, people associate it with Japan. For some reason, there seems to be a stigma surrounding these "Japanese" (or east Asian) things in general. I mean, the instant someone brings up Japan online, they get called a "weeaboo" (basically a creepy nerd who's obsessed with Japan). Same with anything else East Asian. There's some kind of stigma surrounding it.

Edit: I realize this sounds kinda cynical. Sorry, lol. orz

 

[mobius017]

Could this be the reason why Vocaloid is "niche"?

I'm going to guess not. That post referred only to the behavior of the Western fandom and the content it produces. The majority of the Vocaloid fandom as a whole is based in Japan, based on the amount of content created.

Possible reasons why Vocaloid is niche I can think of:

• It was born/centered in Japan, which is obviously one country of many. It's still somewhat centered there, and much of its content is made there and is in Japanese, which limits its spread to other places to a certain extent given the language barrier. I think there's been a longstanding sort of insularity in Japanese culture, too, which might have contributed also, though that tendency would seem to be diminishing in more recent years given the spread of anime, Vocaloid, Japanese snacks/other food, etc., to places outside Japan.
• Attitudes toward music. As I've heard in other threads, there are some attitudes elsewhere against using electronic tools to enhance music. Additionally, it's new, so people used to traditional singers might not get into it.
• Some folks might not get into cartoon-styled, often moe singers.

 

[mikusingularity]

For some reason, there seems to be a stigma (and overall dislike) of these "Japanese" (or east Asian) things in general. I mean, the instant someone brings up Japan online, they get called a "weeaboo" (basically a creepy nerd who's obsessed with Japan). Same with anything else East Asian. There's some kind of stigma surrounding it.

I think it's a stupid stigma, too. Hating something just because it's Japanese sounds pretty racist to me.

 

[mobius017]

I think it's a stupid stigma, too. Hating something just because it's Japanese sounds pretty racist to me.

I've never really understood that stigma. I haven't had too much contact with it, though. Some of the more popular kids when I was in school had at least some interest in Japanese stuff--Pokemon, some of the other popular anime of the time, etc. I have seen a person or two derisively claiming that they didn't get anime and wouldn't get into it, though.

Part of it, I think, might be how different it is--the language (If it's not dubbed. I feel like dubbed would be much easier to accept, since I think some people would object to having to read while watching TV.), the anime art style and how different it can be from a more Western one. To a certain extent, maybe differing cultural aspects, too? Japan can do lots of little things that Westerners find hard to understand (like the sorts of things you see on the more colorful Japanese game shows, etc.).

Really, I feel like a lot of it probably has to do with how into it the people in question are, though. Or that could be at least as important. I feel like if a person gets into anything hard and heavy enough, eventually people around them will find it grating and decide to try to deflate them a little. In fairness, to a certain extent that does fall into the realm of manners--it's probably not the best manners to overly push your interests on everyone around you. But I think there might also be a certain...selfish?...inclination to silence people who loudly profess stuff that's completely foreign to you. Maybe it's just a desire to avoid the cognitive "noise" of stuff you don't care about, never will care about.... Or maybe it's kind of a deep social thing, where you don't want to somehow become an "outsider," so you want to squash the appearance of this new thing you know nothing about in order to keep it from spreading?

I could imagine kids maybe picking on people from a foreign country just because they were different, and I'm sure racism can manifest in children if they pick it up from other people. But I don't know if I'd call any of the stuff from earlier "racist," exactly, because I'm not sure that the people who do these things necessarily have anything against the Japanese people themselves. I'm not saying it couldn't/doesn't happen, because I'm sure it does for other races/in other situations, maybe even for the Japanese. But for this discussion, I'm mostly imagining the kinds of school-age stuff I can remember regarding the acceptance of anime/etc.

 

[mikusingularity]

But I don't know if I'd call any of the stuff from earlier "racist," exactly, because I'm not sure that the people who do these things necessarily have anything against the Japanese people themselves.

When those people meme about "chinese cartoons" (all Asians are the same, amirite?) and how "anime is why two nukes weren't enough," you can tell there is some sort of racism going on.

 

[Scarlet Illusion]

I could imagine kids maybe picking on people from a foreign country just because they were different, and I'm sure racism can manifest in children if they pick it up from other people. But I don't know if I'd call any of the stuff from earlier "racist," exactly, because I'm not sure that the people who do these things necessarily have anything against the Japanese people themselves.

I agree with this because, while it can seem racist, I think people just are less open to it because a lot of what people who aren't really deep into it tend to only see the more "colorful" side of things and seem to think all of it is like that, when there's actually more. (Not too different from getting the impression that all western Vocaloid songs are dark because that's all you ever see. Also, to be fair, I was reluctant to get into Vocaloid at first because I used to only find some of the darker content, but now I've been exposed to lots of other stuff.)

Online, though, I think it's a lot of insecure people who just want to bring others down for liking something, or want to look "cool" because they hate on something popular.

Edit:

When those people meme about "chinese cartoons" (all Asians are the same, amirite?) and how "anime is why two nukes weren't enough," you can tell there is some sort of racism going on.

I think some people think they're being "funny" and don't realize that what they're saying is actually offensive. The joke "anime is why two nukes weren't enough" is something I especially don't like though, because I don't think it's funny to joke about tragedies, but humor is subjective so I guess some people find it funny...

 

[mobius017]

or want to look "cool" because they hate on something popular.

There's definitely that, too. The thing being picked on doesn't have to be popular, necessarily, either. Picking on the person who is different immediately creates this "us vs. them" mentality. I think people actually seek to create that feeling at times, because it enhances their own feeling of belonging.

When those people meme about "chinese cartoons" (all Asians are the same, amirite?) and how "anime is why two nukes weren't enough," you can tell there is some sort of racism going on.

I'll go along with that--those comments do seem racist. I find them disturbing. To be completely fair, there's no context around them, so it's hard to get a good sense for the nature of the person who said them. It still doesn't mean that every instance of this sort of behavior constitutes racism, I don't think (and even those comments could be made by some stupid kid who isn't really racist at heart), but those comments do bother me a good bit.

 

[mikusingularity]

I agree that disliking anime does not necessarily mean you hate Japan or Japanese people.

 

[Aia]

I'll go along with that--those comments do seem racist. I find them disturbing. To be completely fair, there's no context around them, so it's hard to get a good sense for the nature of the person who said them. It still doesn't mean that every instance of this sort of behavior constitutes racism, I don't think (and even those comments could be made by some stupid kid who isn't really racist at heart), but those comments do bother me a good bit.

Yea I hear it almost everyday sadly. My dad does that actually; when we went to a Japanese exhibit in Orlando, he was taking some pictures to show to some relatives, he said, "Gotta have some Chinese people in the photo to make it look real". I don't know why but I felt really uncomfortable hearing that ugh

 

[Aia]

Anyway, back on topic, I really do not see the problem about a song being "edgy". Music is a form of expressing oneself and one's own feelings, whether that can be something serious like someone's deepest fears, or something lighthearted like love. Vocaloid is no different. I just think that people shouldn't be so hard on other producers and artists if they decide to create something that covers what is considered serious. Many people create things like this as a way to cope and get their emotions out there. If I made something like that and posted it, it wouldn't really help my current mental state if a bunch of people complained that it's too edgy. We gotta understand that most of the time when songs cover stuff like mental illness, it's not for the views. I get that many listen to Vocaloid in hopes of escapism, I totally get that, but shouldn't we rather see such songs with heavy topics as a way to work through our troubles and face them? If that's not your thing, that's fine too. If you don't like it, don't watch it. No one will make you against your will, but you shouldn't bring the producer down because of it. People really need to have more tolerance for things like this and try to understand the other point of view.

I'm sorry, but I swear if I see another person complaining about how the Western community is too edgy because of one heavy song they heard, I'm gonna throw my phone on the other side of the room and scream.