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Unpopular Opinions

Leon

AKA missy20201 (Elliot)
Apr 8, 2018
1,041
I think a lot of people would go easier on V5 if it were possible to get it without the Standards at a lower price, tbf. People just aren't a big fan of them, myself included (although I do stan Ken).

Piracy is obviously bad but most of the people who pirate either can't afford the product or wouldn't purchase it even if they could afford to (not interested enough, don't think it's worth it, or whatever other reasoning). As they say, a pirated copy is not a sale lost. So I usually look the other way if someone (who isn't making money off of it!! And isn't actively trying to tell other people to pirate) has an illegitimate copy of something. The angry pitchfork attitude towards it in the vocalsynth fandom is a little silly to me.
That being said, I don't think we should be "lax" on it, per se. If it becomes "okay" to pirate something, then more people who actually would purchase a product may be convinced that they don't need to, and that would really be a shame. So it's kind of a grey area I guess 🤔

Also I've seen a lot of people ragging on Miku NT lately, and while I agree with their complaints/concerns, I still think the design/box is beautiful and that she doesn't sound too bad, so as long as he's halfway decent, I'll definitely be buying Kaito NT whenever he eventually, someday comes out LOL
 

peaches2217

Give me Gackpoid AI or give me DEATH
Sep 11, 2019
1,930
27
Arklahoma
As they say, a pirated copy is not a sale lost.
If someone's actively using a pirated copy of a VB that's still in production, then it's absolutely a sale lost. I'm sympathetic in the case of VBs that are nigh-impossible to find anymore (the English V1s and Piko, namely) or if they're pirating in lieu of a trial, intent on either buying the 'loid if they like it or uninstalling it if not. It's people who pirate synths that are being sold still, long-term, and getting a lot of usage out of them that annoys me. I'd like to again point to Voctro Labs and rampant piracy in the Spanish Vocaloid community and the long-term effect that's had on Spanish voicebanks.

I still think the design/box is beautiful and that she doesn't sound too bad, so as long as he's halfway decent, I'll definitely be buying Kaito NT
I honestly really like her sound. It's flawed, but it's got its own charm! And I'm on board with you there; it's gonna take a really bad product to dissuade me from buying future NTs. I have faith that the issues surrounding Miku NT will press them to make future releases more smooth right out of the gate!
 

Leon

AKA missy20201 (Elliot)
Apr 8, 2018
1,041
If someone's actively using a pirated copy of a VB that's still in production, then it's absolutely a sale lost. I'm sympathetic in the case of VBs that are nigh-impossible to find anymore (the English V1s and Piko, namely) or if they're pirating in lieu of a trial, intent on either buying the 'loid if they like it or uninstalling it if not. It's people who pirate synths that are being sold still, long-term, and getting a lot of usage out of them that annoys me. I'd like to again point to Voctro Labs and rampant piracy in the Spanish Vocaloid community and the long-term effect that's had on Spanish voicebanks.
I definitely get what you mean, but what the saying is referring to is more that, people who pirate are of the mindset that they're not going to purchase the product anyway, so if they can't pirate it then they just won't try/use it at all. It's an unfortunate mindset that I don't agree with, but it is definitely a thing. But then, if it becomes widespread, people who might otherwise have bought it may decide to try pirating, and then it snowballs into an issue a la the Spanish loids. It's a whole mess.

(Now the people who pirate banks without trials to try them out and then either decide they do/don't like them and then either purchase them or not, I don't have any problem with them)

I honestly really like her sound. It's flawed, but it's got its own charm! And I'm on board with you there; it's gonna take a really bad product to dissuade me from buying future NTs. I have faith that the issues surrounding Miku NT will press them to make future releases more smooth right out of the gate!
Yeah, I definitely think that the next NTs will be less... well, fumbled? And I think we should support Crypton's endeavors! I don't know that I'll buy Miku NT just because she isn't my favorite Piapro character, but Kaito and Meiko for sure. And I do like Miku's design a whole lot, so maybe someday... once I have all the Vocaloids and SynthVs I want 😅
 

Rylitah

kiyoteru enthusiast
Staff member
Moderator
Apr 8, 2018
584
Vocal synths is a hobby, not a necessity. I don't really care what the reason is for pirating, but if someone can comfortably afford it I don't really see why they... wouldn't? We've seen a number of startup companies release a vocal or two and then just vanish after their vocal didn't sell well. Creating one certainly isn't cheap, and if they can't make those costs back, they're never going to release anything ever again. It just kinda baffles me that people seem to just be okay with this because "if you don't pirate you're licking a corporation's boot" - these aren't corporations, they're mostly tiny companies mainly just here to provide to this small community. (Small community in this case being the consumer base that actually buys these products. There's a much larger audience of vocal synth fans out there, but only a very small percentage of them actually use the program.) Do some of these companies hope to make a profit? Sure, Sony's probably a good example of that and when it didn't work out they bailed. But for the most part, I don't think overwhelming success has been the end goal - especially recently where a lot of newly released vocals are just passion projects that people got on board with.

It really isn't any of my business to care whether someone is using a pirated vocal or not, it's not important. It just bothers me when people justify it and say it's okay and tell others that it's fine (which I've seen happen) because that's what leads to companies going under/not releasing anything ever again = this community dying. I mean, the vocals that exist will always be there, and people will always use them, but are people really okay with no new vocals ever being released again?

That's why I think it's best to support your hobby whenever you're able. I don't care if people do pirate and the reason for it, but if you can comfortably afford it and you like doing this, it wouldn't hurt to give back. (Also, there are a bunch of free alternatives, especially now. Vocaloid isn't and has never been the only option.)
 

peaches2217

Give me Gackpoid AI or give me DEATH
Sep 11, 2019
1,930
27
Arklahoma
Maika cost 1,632.56 pesos the adverage income is 16,110.18 pesos in Mexico (just using Mexico as an example).
It’s worth remembering that Voctro Labs’ vocals were marketed towards a European Spanish audience rather than a Mexican audience (their accents are a common source of complaint with Mexican users). If they were Mexican products that would be one thing, but poverty isn’t nearly as big an issue in Spain as it is in Mexico. But because of their lackluster sales, it’s unlikely at this point we’ll get another Spanish vocal on a major player, much less a Mexican Spanish vocal.
 

___

Oct 8, 2019
1,546
Also the piracy of them didn't lead to much of promotion for them sadly:/ Maika's saving grace was her multilingual capability which peaked the interest of non-spanish fandom too, so she reached more audiences and that wasn't enough still.

She has very beautiful voice too but I do think it wouldn't have reached as many people w/o the extra phonemes.
 

mobius017

Aspiring ∞ Creator
Apr 8, 2018
2,036
I personally have no interest in going on a witch hunt for people who use pirated vocals. It's not my job to police this behavior; that's literally the job of the police.

Having said that, I don't feel that piracy is something that should be condoned or encouraged.

The thing is, the argument that piracy doesn't result in lost sales has a number of issues. For one, it's basically saying that piracy is ok because it's not affecting people who would actually be willing to pay for the product. Expressed in other words, it's saying that it's wrong to steal unless you're not willing to pay the price for what you want to buy. And not being willing to pay isn't a valid reason that excuses theft. For another thing, with the "no lost sales" mentality in play, what would be anyone's incentive to actually pay for a synth? If you can acceptably get something for free rather than pay for it, only the most altruistic people would be willing to pay the asking price in order to support the synths' creators out of the beneficence of their hearts.

Similarly, this argument that pirating is somehow sticking it to the companies that make the products is incorrect, too. Stealing from these companies isn't going to make them lower their prices; they can't compete with "free" anyway. What they're going to do is put in place lots of inconvenient anti-piracy measures that are a pain in the butt for every honest person who buys the software. Or it will cause these companies to stop making synth products that they can't sell to break even/make a profit. So stealing actually does nothing more than hurt the common people that the supposed Robin Hoods are trying to fight for.

Related to the above point is the idea that scale somehow excuses piracy--the idea that stealing from Yamaha is ok, but stealing from a little startup company is wrong. It doesn't matter. Take a look at it from another example--if you murder 100 people, most everyone will likely agree it's awful, and I suppose it is actually worse than if you murder just 1 person. But still, you've committed murder.

It's really not all that complicated. Piracy is stealing. Stealing is wrong. It's wrong for how it undermines the commerce that is one of the fundamental principles of how money-based societies, in a very nuts and bolts way, function. Furthermore, as anyone who has experienced the emotional and economic fallout of having been stolen from can tell you, stealing is wrong for how it hurts the people who have been stolen from. To be opposed to stealing is not being elitist; it's being ethical and compassionate to one's fellow human beings by treating them fairly, even when you have the means and incentive to do otherwise.

I'm not saying there aren't some circumstances that justify stealing. Hungry people with no money might well justify the theft of a loaf of bread in order to avoid imminent starvation, if there are no other options available. But vocal synths are not bread for starving people.

I think I'm more or less ok with sharing installers for synths that don't have trials. They're only good for like 2 weeks anyway, and inasmuch as that's how trials work, it's fine; though if the company didn't make a trial available, to some extent there is probably some obligation to honor their wishes, since it's their creation/product. I don't particularly feel like further exploring that particular line of thought at the moment, though. On the other hand, I don't think that cracked software/Pocaloids are ok. The intention with those would seem to be to steal permanently and never pay.

The truth is, there is a very accessible way for everyone to have any given vocal synth. It's a two-part strategy: 1) patience and 2) saving. In my opinion, if a person loves a synth enough to go through the effort and risk of breaking the law and stealing it, then they love that synth enough to be patient and save even a few dollars a week until they can purchase it legally, too.

As an aside, I'm not saying I agree with the price of some vocal synths, or even audio software/hardware in general. Digital music/working with vocal synths can be an expensive hobby! And given that one of my favorite aspects of that hobby is how its nature makes it widely accessible (rather than having to work with a human singer, buy many physical instruments, etc., etc.), that has caused me some amount of discomfort. Further, I have to say that I think some of that price is inflated by brand name and other such things. But at the same time, digital music/working with vocal synths is exactly what I said it is--a hobby. It isn't a bread issue. And there are relatively inexpensive computers and free/lower-cost vocal synths available; the decision not to use them and instead to pirate other synths is a matter of desire/preference, which makes that decision even less of a bread issue. I fully support anyone who wants to work with any synth they set their heart on, but given the circumstances of this being a hobby and not a driving need, I think said synth should be acquired legally.

Returning from that tangent, to extend the somewhat logical/emotional point I made regarding how I think a person should go about acquiring a synth they love that they can't presently afford, I'd also add that I personally feel that a pirate isn't showing that synth any kind of respect when they go and pirate it. In my opinion, if a synth had the capacity for a preference, they'd want to be paid for rather than stolen away by force. But that's almost sort of a headcanon thing and is neither here nor there, depending on how you think.
 
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D

Deleted member 6215

Guest
I'm not even going to say anything about piracy because I will sound like a blunt jerk if I do, so I'm keeping my mouth shut, I don't want to start any arguments with anyone

V Flower's voice is something I can't really listen to sometimes. Like, She needs to clear her throat lol
Also, I like her V3 design more, her V4 looks like She came straight out of Kingdom Hearts
 

poser

sekai liker
Mar 27, 2020
198
www.youtube.com
i jujst woke up from a nap so this might not be written very well my bad
honestly i think piracy of small-company products on a massive scale does negatively affect the industry in question (voice synthesizers), but i dont think equating it to things like murder is fair. if the piracy stays niche within mostly a community of people who could never hope to afford the product and are just doing it without a profit motif and just for fun i wouldnt say is a damnable offense by any means unless they are actively promoting it on a large scale to an audience who would've otherwise bought and supported the product on it's own
(plus i have my own issues with people using legality as a foolproof method to determining whether something is right or not. things like theft have been damnable in every society in every period of time, but that was usually to protect richer people's property from poorer people who were desperate (not counting banditry of course thats a bit different. (although things like...MURDER etc are obviously bad, since they are actively harming another human being)
id say loitering is a good example of something rather stupid being criminalized. loitering is fineable in many areas, and can end in jailtime. most people wouldn't look at a "loiterer" and see them as doing anything bad, but the law says so, so it must be immoral, right? )

sorry for that anyways back on topic i definitely think people should NOT pirate things that rely on what theyre pirating to make a profit, such as synthesizer V (which has a free version yet ive still seen people asking for cracks :/......) since it's not fair...but pirating things that are rather harmless/no longer in production/abandonware id say is fair game, since there is likely no way to get it unless you want to go through/support scalpers selling it for insane markup.

vflower is one of my favorite vocaloids but if i see one more artist use them way past their range (SO many songs have her like shrieking) im gonna cryy :ring_ani_lili:
 

crtstatic

MYK-IV's #1 fan
Jan 23, 2020
394
19
My computer
crtstatic.neocities.org
equating it to things like murder
I get what you’re saying but I can’t help but think of that one anti-music piracy campaign where the company equated pirating music to dismembering your favorite artists (the images are a bit gruesome, don’t look it up if you’re sensitive to that)

and time for my unupopular vocaloid opinion that will make people upset, I don’t Fukase sounds THAT good. He sounds like he has peanut butter or something in the back of his throat while singing. It could just be me, but I ALWAYS hear it
 
Sep 21, 2019
1,395
I 100% agree about Fukase. He’s just one voice I’m never quite be able to enjoy for that very reason; he just sounds very grating to me.
The only times I can recall actually enjoying his voice is in a cover (and a talkloid) by Jade S. (Love the way they use Fukase!)
 
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peaches2217

Give me Gackpoid AI or give me DEATH
Sep 11, 2019
1,930
27
Arklahoma
I 100% agree about Fukase. He’s just one voice I’m never quite be able to enjoy for that very reason; he just sounds very grating to me.
The only times I can recall actually enjoying his voice is in a cover (and a talkloid) by Jade S. (Love the way they use Fukase!)
I figured I’d fall in love with him after using him, given how huge his fanbase is. He’s just as challenging to use as he is to listen to, honestly. That’s part of the reason I keep dragging my feet on my cover featuring him: I just don’t wanna put up with trying to make him sound good, and I applaud the few that can.

On that note: I think Piko is overhyped AF, sure… but it’s not unwarranted. I haven’t used him, so I can’t say that from a producer’s standpoint, but I’ve never heard a usage of him that’s made me go “Euagh.” I think he still holds up well in the era of V5.
 

Leon

AKA missy20201 (Elliot)
Apr 8, 2018
1,041
Fukase is SO hard to use! It's frustrating because I've heard great uses of him, but I haven't figured him out yet.

Piko is actually genuinely good, and I enjoy using him. Not great if you're a notebender because his 1/64th notes act up some but if you're fine with more PIT and less notebends, he's golden.

Moke, oddly, is another one whose voice is kind of grating in-editor but whose songs/covers I adore. I think I need to go ahead and export the bits of my Moke wip that I have done and try mixing him. Maybe that's where the magic happens. Hell, if I can remove most of the extraneous noise from Leon I ought to be able to make Moke bearable 😂
 

morrysillusion

v flower enthusiast
Jul 14, 2018
847
25
Socal
morrysillusion.net
i feel like ive seen this opinion around enough that i could present mine as an unpopular opinion so, here i am. i see a lotta dislike for AI voicebanks (namely referring to all the Synth V ones as of late) versus their standard counterparts and i just cant agree tbh! i really really love the AI ones over the standard ones, even when they were just getting started with it. but perhaps thats my taste of already disliking the super feminine, higher pitched types of voices, since the AI ones often end up sound a bit deeper and natural. i think character voices are great and can be used fine with their intended audience but i guess as someone who wants 'less assuming' voices for generic original songs unrelated to a 'character', these ;ppl ;ole great options for the future even if attached to characters, because they sound just... more natural. ill take the improvement of the AI's natural sound, enunciation and tone over the standards any day (again, mostly talking Synth V here). i just see a great future for more realism in voice synths after Synth V has come out with such outstanding improvements to the AI banks (in a quick short span of time, i might add) so it surprises me i see more dislike for right now when i dont think they sound that bad (maybe i see enough promise in them as they are to cancel out any dislike i could have lol).

they definitely arent perfect but the variation i can get from Saki AI over Saki standard is crazy different and already has a much more natural sound due to various capabilities the standard doesnt have. i think many are looking forward to where itll go, dont get me wrong i dont think many ppl have a seething hatred for them, but im already super into what we have. if i was making music consistently with vocaloid id be grabbing all those AI banks right now tbh (though i wish theyd sell more of them by themself and not as a bundle...)
 

blackout

Passionate Fan
Apr 13, 2018
125
i feel like ive seen this opinion around enough that i could present mine as an unpopular opinion so, here i am. i see a lotta dislike for AI voicebanks (namely referring to all the Synth V ones as of late) versus their standard counterparts and i just cant agree tbh! i really really love the AI ones over the standard ones, even when they were just getting started with it. but perhaps thats my taste of already disliking the super feminine, higher pitched types of voices, since the AI ones often end up sound a bit deeper and natural. i think character voices are great and can be used fine with their intended audience but i guess as someone who wants 'less assuming' voices for generic original songs unrelated to a 'character', these ;ppl ;ole great options for the future even if attached to characters, because they sound just... more natural. ill take the improvement of the AI's natural sound, enunciation and tone over the standards any day (again, mostly talking Synth V here). i just see a great future for more realism in voice synths after Synth V has come out with such outstanding improvements to the AI banks (in a quick short span of time, i might add) so it surprises me i see more dislike for right now when i dont think they sound that bad (maybe i see enough promise in them as they are to cancel out any dislike i could have lol).

they definitely arent perfect but the variation i can get from Saki AI over Saki standard is crazy different and already has a much more natural sound due to various capabilities the standard doesnt have. i think many are looking forward to where itll go, dont get me wrong i dont think many ppl have a seething hatred for them, but im already super into what we have. if i was making music consistently with vocaloid id be grabbing all those AI banks right now tbh (though i wish theyd sell more of them by themself and not as a bundle...)
I agree completely, I really like how AI banks capture nuances in voices, it really feels like the future of voice synths is finally here. One thing I also really like specifically when it comes to SynthV AI banks is that it doesn't really force you to stick to realistic tuning and AI banks can sound just as good with more traditional Vocaloid-y tuning. Personally I feel like the only Standard bank that actually matches up their AI counterpart is Rikka's... Saki Standard vs Saki AI is the most extreme case when it comes to this but Standard banks just sound so flavourless next to their AI counterparts to me that sometimes I struggle to see the point in why they keep doing them... but even if they're not really my thing it's a good thing that they still provide the option for more traditional sample based banks.
 

peaches2217

Give me Gackpoid AI or give me DEATH
Sep 11, 2019
1,930
27
Arklahoma
I think AI banks as we have them are a lot more pleasant to listen to than they are to work with. They’re still as hit-or-miss depending on who’s doing the work or how the AI interprets pitch and such, but I’ve gone from “Ew, AI.” to “Hell yeah, more options! AI’s great!” over the past few months. However, as I’ve said before, AI trades character and flexibility for realism. Whether that’s a good trade varies from listener to listener and user to user, but I just can’t get that same level of nuance and character with AI as I can with Standard. Both have their pros and cons, but I think AI banks still have a long way to go before they match the versatility of Standard banks.
 

lIlI

Staff member
Moderator
Apr 6, 2018
921
The Lightning Strike
There's a frequent debate between 'Most Western vocal synth producers sound the same' and 'Everyone is unique, you're just not looking hard enough'.

I think common trends exist among Western producers, but I also believe it's equally prevalent in the rest of the fandom.

For example, the Japanese community has gone through many phases; from fast paced rock songs inspired by KEMU around 2012, to everyone having an 'x PROJECT' series when Jin was big. Now we're in the era of this specific genre of thumbnail. It's easier to find producers that defy trends in larger subsets of the fandom simply because there's more of them, but the influence of popular creators is universal.

So it's natural that a lot of Western producers want to make music that's similar to Ghost or CircusP. That sound is what people discovering vocal synths are exposed to first, so people who enjoy that style are those most likely to join the community, and go on to become producers. And it's undeniable that artists looking to grow their popularity take notes from their successful peers, and are inclined to cater to an audience that already exists.

While we do have musicians working from less well-known influences, popular producers have left a noticeable mark on all areas of the fandom - just as popular artists do on the music world as a whole.
 
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Leon

AKA missy20201 (Elliot)
Apr 8, 2018
1,041
THANK you for articulating this. I know at least some of us have been thinking it, but I could never quite put it to words.

---
In keeping with the thread, here's a maybe-unpopular opinion?? Idk
Somewhat brought to my mind by the recent discussions of that Vocaloid box scalper on YA/Mercari

I'm not a big fan of the mindset of paying insane prices for a physical just to put it on a shelf. I mean, to each their own and if you spend a shitton of money on something then you do with it as you see fit, of course. But in my mind, it's different from a figure or trading card (etc) that you can display in a case or packaging. Vocaloids (synths in general) are meant to be used.

It's why, when my friend bought me a Lola box she happened across (not that $700 one from recently lol), I gave her my digital Lola installer/serial, and when I got the box I tore off the plastic wrap and activated that serial instead. I may be a chronically slow worker with heavy executive dysfunction, but I do have wips with nearly every voicebank I own. Sure I can stack all my boxes on a shelf and say "ooh pretty!", but the best way I know to show my love for my collection is just to use them :mirai_ani_lili:
 

Blue Of Mind

The world that I do not know...
Apr 8, 2018
728
I'm not a big fan of the mindset of paying insane prices for a physical just to put it on a shelf. I mean, to each their own and if you spend a shitton of money on something then you do with it as you see fit, of course. But in my mind, it's different from a figure or trading card (etc) that you can display in a case or packaging. Vocaloids (synths in general) are meant to be used.

It's why, when my friend bought me a Lola box she happened across (not that $700 one from recently lol), I gave her my digital Lola installer/serial, and when I got the box I tore off the plastic wrap and activated that serial instead. I may be a chronically slow worker with heavy executive dysfunction, but I do have wips with nearly every voicebank I own. Sure I can stack all my boxes on a shelf and say "ooh pretty!", but the best way I know to show my love for my collection is just to use them :mirai_ani_lili:
This is why I don't own a single Vocaloid despite being a fan for so many years - aside from not being musically inclined in the slightest, I'd also feel guilty about turning an expensive piece of software into a dust-covered paperweight. If I'm paying a lot of money for something, I have to get some use out of it, which is why I don't understand the collectors who only own physical Vocaloids for the sake of it.

I certainly won't deny some boxes are beautiful and/or come with amazing bonuses, but that still doesn't encourage me to spend money on software I can't use. I know talkloids are a thing, but I'm not funny enough to write them lol.
 

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