Unpopular Opinions

[Blue Of Mind]

It probably doesn't help that Japanese users are still loyal to Vocaloid and CeVIO, and Vocaloid itself has just been upgraded to V6 with AI (including crosslingual) support. The English-speaking fandom used to rag on Vocaloid for being behind other synths in recent years, but now it's back in the game. The only thing that could set Vocaloid, SynthV or any other program apart now is support for languages other than English, Japanese and Chinese.

 

[DefiantKitsune]

At the risk of sounding doomsday-ish and maybe jumping to conclusion too soon, I have to wonder whether it's failed to prove itself when it actually mattered. It came into the scene when Vocaloid alternatives were in demand but said scene has yet not settled, like it has now.

I think Vocaloid6, as much as certain parts of the western fandom want to deny it, sealed the window for SynthV to truly establish itself. CeVIO rocked it's chance and took the exact niche Vocaloid was moving away from, and SynthV didn't go for that and didn't market nearly well enough to get the professional end Vocaloid was moving back towards.

 

[lIlI]

I don't think VOCALOID6 spells doom and gloom for SynthV, as right now SynthV's quality is a lot more impressive to an outsider. Vocaloid6 retains its classic Vocaloidy-ness - vocals that obviously aren't real and wouldn't be mistaken for a human without a lot of work from the user. This is great for long time fans that love the classic vocal synth sound, and perfect for retaining the iconic qualities of older voices. But it makes SynthV much more appealing to ordinary music producers that want easy, realistic vocals out of the box. If Dreamtonics can improve its marketing, SynthV has the potential to be the default choice for casual vocal synth users - musicians who need a vocal synth for practical reasons, and want something easy to use that won't distract listeners unfamiliar with the technology.

There's great potential for both to exist with their own separate userbases, as Vocaloid and SynthV provide different functions and appeal to different people. For this reason, I don't really see the current state of the industry as an engine vs engine battle. We talk about the pros and cons of different vocal synths a lot, but at the end of the day, their differences mean they aren't truly competing with each other.

I think the best showcase of engine coexistence, is how many of the most impressive usages of Vocaloid6 use SynthV as a base: combining SynthV's naturalness with Vocaloid's iconic character, the two engines are, rather than rivals, complementary!

 

[___]

I...guess? But it has as much potential to appeal to character-driven userbase, like the current western fandom would prefer it to be, in it's current form, it does bad job at appealing to both.

This is entirely reliant on one's faith in their marketing, or their potential to improve on that, and I'll leave that up for people to decide on that on their own, but it's not unreasonable of DefiantKitsune to not have faith in it, when they haven't given us much reason to be.

 

[peaches2217]

It’s also important to note that, in spite of its popularity here in the west, SynthV was never anywhere near as popular in Japan. Not saying it doesn’t have fans or users (otherwise how would any of the Japanese VBs exist? ), but its fanbase has been fairly small and it’s user base smaller still. Usages as well as opinion of the software within the Japanese community took a negative turn after the fiasco that was 1.7.0, with many calling out the software for its inconsistency and lack of fairness towards third-party vocals (Dreamtonics putting those vocals on its store doesn’t change the fact that those same vocals’ quality will continue to steadily decline based on factors outside of their companies’ control).

Even if SynthV manages to do a 120 and become extremely competent in every department, its reputation will take much longer to repair on that end, and the Western fandom’s usages of SynthV don’t even begin to compare to the Japanese fandom’s usages of Vocaloid and CeVIO, numbers-wise. And that’s not even touching on the Chinese fandom, who have been flocking in droves to Ace. The Medium 5 girls, Xingchen Infinity, and the Dreamtonics Mandarin vocals have been seeing steady (and to some extent, rapid) decline in usage over the past few months.

Which is to say: I think SynthV has failed to become The Next Vocaloid, and I don’t think it will ever succeed in such a goal. I think Dreamtonics CAN save it and repair their reputation, absolutely! But it will ultimately never be the absolute smash success Vocaloid and CeVIO are now.

 

[morrysillusion]

i feel too much about specific voices in various synths to describe Why one is an improvement or a failure with whatever other synths is too subjective to add onto so i wont do that- but ive certainly been thinking a lot about Synth V, mostly since V6 came out. I remember when Synth v first came out and initially i (and i imagine others) were like, wow cool, a synth made by someone who has passion for this kinda tech! seems like a nice little indie software. and much in the vein of utau it made sense to sit back and let things happen, and maybe not expect too much in the front of synth v being comparable to vocaloid in status. so in the start any potential flaws or mishaps were expected to a degree- like any developing software. but quickly with vocaloid just being absent for quite a while, and synth v moving forward to Studio, etc I was definitely like... ok so, they are kind of one of The options now, especially as a western user, and if they are in theory going to replace Vocaloid for me because yamaha hasn't done anything with it then.... its important to think about how they're handling themselves as a company, and marketing, and life span so on so forth.

as time has gone on and dreamtonics keeps churning out their own banks, i was really starting to get this feeling that like... maybe thats all theyd might end up doing eventually if they didn't try and fix the other issues at hand, especially around marketing, bc that can definitely push away those third party companies from seeing profit in returning. i feel that third party voices has been pretty light when seeing all the ones dreamtonics has made (i know the ones that are coming but, ones like Cangqiong etc have just been in limbo for so long!). in theory i wouldnt care if dreamtonics just made a lot of their own voices and drifted towards that.... *if* there was an attempt at variety, some semblance of good marketing, whatever else. two different sides are being dealt w here- one side is the engine itself, all those tools and advancements w AI etc. and then the actual use of the voices which isnt just 'sound good' its 'how much does this library appeal to a vast number of producers'. they go hard on the inside tech, and i feel like that detracts from other important parts regarding the voices and how theyre presented even. if we were to compare dreamtonics avatarless voices to yamaha's, no matter the opinions on yamaha's banks, their trailer for vocaloid 5 and 6 felt like advertisements. and Synth v had a similar feel with their Weina trailer but... well, Weina seemed like an attempt to really hit that idea and it got some critisism due to price, quality, etc (and have yet to see if that more Pro vibe of bank was a thing to happen again- which was always unclear).. past that everything i see from synth v just feels like theres no little attempt to establish an image that would appeal to those unknowing of it. as lili original said- the search for it is bad, the access to some voices isnt easy, other info worth knowing isnt forwardly presented, the lack of variety in types of voices etc etc....

synth v falters when you look at the details outside of what is a good program- because by no means is it unusable, trash, bad quality. its good, but its company is imo, proving to have some issues w seeming like they can handle itself like a company should- support or marketing wise. and like, the existing vocal synth community took to synth v, because we know what these things are. but outside of us, i dont feel like they are doing a lot to help themselves! there were good choices that came after the hdvm issue in providing solutions people asked for, but even that was a hasty solution and done in ways that arent really friendly to everything out side of...checking twitter, or whatever. in short: goddamn do i hope they work on the professional side of the company. it hasnt been too good for me, as a user, who wants to trust the way they handle themselves.

in the end i think every genre of goods is in competition with each other... i think the heated opinions of the fandom are proof of that alone- people will have their preferences, opinions, favorites, etc. no matter how much we cross over our uses of engines. i mean we have been sitting in "vocaloid is dead" era for a while now after yamaha went pretty much silent until just recently, and something like that undoubetly affected peole's opinions on vocaloid of as software- very much affecting if theyd want to buy it again or not. which didnt help when at that time others were feeling engines like synth v were getting better and better than vocaloid (....again, a subjective thought, but definitely a common one i have heard and currently hear. my youtube comments have been hell since v6 came out lol).

so in that as an example of impressions, i feel theres a back and forth now as v6 comes to light, because the marketing, the way companies act, etc really do matter. the harder part for dreamtonics is that still regardless of opinions on vocaloid- theyre established, the name is known, and they know that they are going out to market with an intent of attracting certain kinds of people. i dont know where to go with this anymore but. things keep going, changing, moving, no matter what you like or dislike- the way we take this is always a domino effect even if you cant see it!

 

[Stigbn]

I often read some other forums about music, especially VI-control.
And I can tell you, that Synth V has made a VERY big impression on many people who absolutely don't like Vocaloid or maybe didn't know about voice synths at all.
There's seems to be slowly coming a whole new group of people who's interested in voice synths, from what I can read, it's both amateurs who like to test out their compositions with a voice and lyrics (like me...) and even pros making mockups for other singers.
The problem is, as some of you have mentioned, that Synth V has a vey bad way of promoting their software outside of Japan/China. It's realy difficult for beginners to even get the right software and the voices. And lack of recent documentation of what the software is capable of.

 

[PearlStarLight5]

I forgot about other music forums and their thoughts on SynthV for a second (or perhaps longer than that)

 

[peaches2217]

And I can tell you, that Synth V has made a VERY big impression on many people who absolutely don't like Vocaloid or maybe didn't know about voice synths at all.

That’s something I’ve noticed as well: a whoooooole lot of the user/listener base for SynthV is people who are newer to vocalsynths or people who extol it for the sole purpose of “It’s not Vocaloid!”. I think that ties back to Dreamtonics’ poor marketing: how are people hearing about SynthV? Through YouTube and Twitter, where it gets the most hype. There’s also the niche of people who are interested in it because if its technical aspects, but in those scenarios, such communities tend to be self-contained, hence why people often don’t consider them.

I’m not sure where I’m going with this, but it’s a thought I had. Thank you for mentioning these this! It’s all interesting to consider.

 

[lIlI]

Oh, there's one thing I should have been more clear about in my post: I'm speaking from the perspective of English usage and reflecting on vocal synth's potential within English speaking audiences. I think Vocaloid's been able to achieve human-level realism in Japanese for ages (Yuzuki Yukari my beloved); but its English isn't quite there yet to appeal to mainstream producers as more than a novelty. It could definitely get there though, if Yamaha is diligent with their updates.

I often read some other forums about music, especially VI-control.
And I can tell you, that Synth V has made a VERY big impression on many people who absolutely don't like Vocaloid or maybe didn't know about voice synths at all.
There's seems to be slowly coming a whole new group of people who's interested in voice synths, from what I can read, it's both amateurs who like to test out their compositions with a voice and lyrics (like me...) and even pros making mockups for other singers.
The problem is, as some of you have mentioned, that Synth V has a vey bad way of promoting their software outside of Japan/China. It's realy difficult for beginners to even get the right software and the voices. And lack of recent documentation of what the software is capable of.

This 100%! SynthV has a big potential market, the product has been good enough since Gen 4; it's just 1. letting that market know it exists, and 2. making that purchase simple. I think it's very easy for us, who have been in the community for a long time, to forget just how overwhelming and confusing it is to get into vocal synths at first. I truly believe it's not a matter of characters (as much as I love 'em).

An example that comes to mind is how often I see people within the fandom lamenting that they want to try SynthV, but can't afford it. SynthV has a good free version that makes it easy to get into - but people do not know it exists.

 

[peaches2217]

I think the big issue with the whole "Synths with the potential to break into the mainstream" mindset is that it overlooks one little caveat: there's no market for such a thing in most Western countries, and certainly not in the biggest English-speaking countries. Virtual/fictional character singers? Sure. Gorillaz has been a mainstay for about as long as I can remember, and HoloLive has a huge following all over the world. But those characters are voiced by flesh-and-blood people, and that's part, I think, of why they're so accepted. Other technological advances that have been controversial in the West have found quick acceptance in the East. There's absolutely a community and a market for it, but that market's not gonna have their music played on American airwaves, for example.

The truth it, the only huge vocalsynth market, the only market where there's a chance for it to be fully mainstream, is in the East, especially Japan and China. Look at Vocaloid. As of V5 it markets itself as a professional product to both Japanese and Western users, but its focus has always been its Japanese audience: there's greater support on the Japanese website, not to mention that it often comes bundled with Cubase, which is, iirc, either one of the largest or the largest DAW amongst Japanese music producers, while it's overshadowed by programs like Ableton or FL Studio or Studio One in the West. Vocaloid has seen success with Western producers because its marketing is Western-friendly, but its biggest successes come from its Japanese audience, and that's where they focus their attention as such.

There actually is an English-language voicesynth that's simple to find, realistic out of the box, and markets itself competently to English-speaking audiences. It's Emvoice. Look, the creator's an asshole who made a mockery of himself and his software by discrediting the programs that came before it, I won't deny that for a moment, but looking through a purely critical lense, it does well to appeal to music production circles, even though it's been all but excommunicated from the vocalsynthesis community. They came completely out of nowhere just as Dreamtonics did, and they've found their niche with the same crowd who might be interested in Vocaloid and SynthV. But at the end of the day, even with that success, have you heard Lucy or Jay on the radio? You could have the most realistic, accessible, simple-to-use synth, and at the end of the day it's still more convenient to just hire a real person to sing, rendering synths novelties to such circles.

Phew! All that to say: these discussions might benefit from acknowledging that synthesized vocals are, always have been, and likely always will be a niche within the West. They have a market and that market continues to grow, and I hope to see it grow bigger than ever as we forge on ahead. But I truly believe, with all my heart, that vocalsynths will never be seen as mainstream option in Western music, and "Could this synth break into the mainstream?" shouldn't be a factor on which we consider such programs. The only truly mainstream usages of vocalsynths we've seen over here are from producers and artists who incorporate Miku for the sake of nostalgia.

 

[PearlStarLight5]

You also have the western fear of technology taking over society. While it's usually irrational, sometimes it's pretty understandable when you got shit like Paragraph AI.
But even then, I'm not interested in vocal synth culture going mainstream in the west. Not for fear of it replacing real singers because that would never happen whatsoever, rather that I prefer it in a weeb bubble that only some choose to enter. Besides, things would really get obnoxious if it went mainstream.

 

[Sherbet42]

I think it's stupid that super old vocaloids (like, V2, a bit of v3) aren't discontinewed. Why does big Al cost the same now as he did back in like 2008? Any other software with zero intent of perma upgrades (like, video games) are majorly discounted years before now.

Maybe it's just a standard in the music scene, but that's also just as silly.

 

[poser]

I think it's stupid that super old vocaloids (like, V2, a bit of v3) aren't discontinewed. Why does big Al cost the same now as he did back in like 2008? Any other software with zero intent of perma upgrades (like, video games) are majorly discounted years before now.

Maybe it's just a standard in the music scene, but that's also just as silly.

if they got discontinued then people who still enjoy the older variations of a vocal/older unupdated characters cant get them (for example, many ppl including myself prefer rin's' v2 sound to her append+v4 sounds). i do think their prices should be slashed a bit though

 

[Rylitah]

Many V2s are discontinued, though. The fact that your only option to get most of them physically or at all is secondhand is proof of that, and there is no longer official support from Yamaha for them (and hasn't been for a very long time now). Rare products like that skyrocket in price due to their scarcity, and those prices are basically just determined by the people who already had them.

There just isn't like... a regulation for steep discounts like this in the vocal synth scene. For ones that are sold in physical storefronts, when a new version comes along, the old version just plain isn't sold anymore (you will not find a V2 being sold new at a physical retail store in Japan in 2022).

For Big Al, PowerFX had honestly been really unreliable in recent years regarding people receiving their products after purchase (I don't know if this is still the case, I haven't heard about anyone who's tried to buy directly from them lately). I wouldn't put it past a company who doesn't have an automated system like that and yet still failing to provide a product manually to permanently change the price of their ancient product like that either, orz (though Zero-G's V2s are about $10 cheaper... at least they generally go on sale often and have discount codes to make them even cheaper).

 

[Blue Of Mind]

I feel a bit inclined to agree that the V2s that are still around should be sold at cheaper retail prices than currently. But on the other hand, V2s still come with the V2 program bundled as was the old standard, which is probably the main reason why they're still expensive. I think there are some V3s that are still being sold digitally at their original price, which to me seems a bit more of a ripoff when you consider they only come with the lite version of the V3 program. Unless you have V5/V6 or Piapro (which supports Vocaloids up to V4), or if you just don't realise that V3s (and V4s) don't come with the full version of Vocaloid, you'll be stuck with a truncated version otherwise.

 

[PearlStarLight5]

For Big Al, PowerFX had honestly been really unreliable in recent years regarding people receiving their products after purchase (I don't know if this is still the case, I haven't heard about anyone who's tried to buy directly from them lately). I wouldn't put it past a company who doesn't have an automated system like that and yet still failing to provide a product manually to permanently change the price of their ancient product like that either, orz (though Zero-G's V2s are about $10 cheaper... at least they generally go on sale often and have discount codes to make them even cheaper).

I think most people who buy PFX Vocaloids these days just use Sonicwire (if they know that's an option). That was how I bought Big Al a couple weeks ago.

 

[Prism]

I don't know if it's just me. But as a mainly English vocaloid fan, but it's a absolute shame that they've discontinued v2. There's nothing on a technical level that keeps v2s out of v5 and v6. People have been put v2s into v5 and they usually are the ones that improve the most. Even in Japanese there are valid reasons for using the v2 cryptonloids over their updates (looking at Luka). There's not a lot technical difference from v3 and v4 banks just growl samples and most banks usually just use the stock growl samples. There's also not that much difference between v4 and v5. I'm still heartbroken we lost v1 because they may be old but doesn't mean they don't deserve to be bought and used.

Oh the thing with power fx is that they are having trouble because they have Russian investors and with the war going on it's been a big mess.

 

[PearlStarLight5]

Even with the growl parameter, hacking has proven that even V2s can use it because it's literally just that, a parameter:

 

[___]

That's popular opinion honestly, a lot of people share that sentiment.

PowerFX had been having issues before the war too.