Unpopular Opinions

[Tortoiseshel]

I have been summoned from my social media sabbatical by bad takes about race and fandom

• So-called "blackwashing" will never, ever, ever be on the same level as whitewashing (at least in any of our lifetimes) because of the literal thousands of years of colorism and racism discriminating against people with darker skin tones. In almost every culture in the world, darker-skinned people are treated as less-than in nearly every metric- beauty, intelligence, merit, class, even more "concrete" things like income is often lower if your skin is darker. (There are a few exceptions, such as music or sports, but it should be noted that those tend to be entertainment fields which has its own implications). So the social dynamics behind a lighter-skinned character being drawn darker are vastly different than the opposite.
• When people on social media talk about "blackwashing characters", they're usually talking about two very different situations: The first is something like Disney (one of the biggest corporations in history) changing Ariel from white to Black in the live-action Little Mermaid remake. While the vast majority of outcry against this was just bald-faced racism, there were some people asking if taking a white story by white writers and musicians and just changing the lead to a Black woman really counts as meaningful Black representation, which is actually a pretty good question in my opinion. It's not like there's a shortage of Black creatives out there, maybe it would be better to just give them a chance to tell their own stories instead of just remaking old stuff with a few new faces! If we lived in a reasonable world, this would be what the term "blackwashing" would be used for. But we don't. So it's not. :(
• The other situation is random people online, very often Black and/or dark-skinned themselves, drawing or editing their favorite characters to look more like themselves because they are starved for representation. This is completely harmless fun and anyone who harasses these people- who are very often literal children!- is a dickhead.
• Whitewashing of characters in fanart online likewise generally refers to two different situations: There's the accidental or thoughtless lightening of skintones, as is often seen in fanart by Japanese and other East Asian artists. East Asia has a very long history of colorism that even predates European contact- to the point where "white skin" is sometimes seen as a sign of moral or even spiritual virtue- so these instances tend to be borne of the artists' unconscious biases coming through in their art more than any deliberate malice. While I think this is something everyone, including them, should work to unlearn- racism and colorism is a global phenomenon- being dogpiled online by foreigners who barely speak the same language as you is probably not going to be the best way to go about that.
• The other version is racists whitewashing characters purely to make the "blackwashers" mad. They also tend to make characters specifically blonde and blue-eyed, i.e. "Aryan", because these people are often literal Nazis as well. These losers know what they're doing and do not deserve your good will or patience. Car hammer explosion all of them.
  • It also shouldn't be left unsaid that while Black/dark skin fanart and edits is almost always made out of love and can often be beautiful and technically impressive just as standalone artworks, these pieces invariably look like dogshit. So, you know, in case you need any more differences between whitewashing and "blackwashing".
• "Person/People of Color" is a term coined in the United States- a country where whites are the majority, both numerically and politically- to refer to non-white people. Removed from that context, it's not really useful. A Japanese-American person is going to have a completely different life experience and relationship to whiteness/white people than a Japanese person born and raised in Japan. And that's especially in terms of media representation- in Japan, the vast majority of people you'll see in your mainstream media will be other Japanese people, while in America, your options are going to be much more limited and narrow. That's why I always have to laugh whenever nettouyo on Twitter say stuff like, "But you're taking away my Japanese representation for your Black representation " because they probably see a higher percentage of Japanese faces in their media than I do white faces here in America! So... yeah, if we're talking about East Asian characters from Western creators- Sonika and ANRI for example- I'd call those POC. But East Asian characters from East Asian media- like Miku or Teto or... the vast majority of vocal synth characters- I honestly would not call them POC because of the context they primarily exist in.
• Lastly, regarding Black!Miku taking away from actually Black characters like Asterian or Nyl or even Leon and Lola, I think that's a very fair criticism... but only if you're talking specifically about vocal synth fandom. Because for as popular as Miku and a couple of her friends are, vocal synthesis is still very niche and most of the characters we love are completely unknown to people outside spaces like these. Most people drawing Black Miku (or Brazilian Miku or whatever) probably aren't really fans of Vocaloid or any synth in particular, they just like that there's this cute character that can be and look however you want her to. She's basically Virtual Japanese Barbie for the 21st century in that way. That being said, I absolutely want synths like Asterian to get more use, and it does suck that we're still being inundated with cutesy teen pop idol voices! But I'm not a musician so

Side Yap

Also if you hate people changing character appearances, you'd hate how I draw Vocaloids lmaooooooo I don't even let them have unnatural hair and eye colors

 

[IO+]

V5 and V6 are overhated, I feel like people blame their lack of skill on the engine.
I like the SP banks and am happy that there's variety/not all vsynth companies still not trying to sound realistic.
People complaining about calling non-Vocaloids Vocaloids is annoying, the Japanese fandom does it all the time. It's "Vocacolle," not "Onnseigouseicolle!"
Vocaloid fans seek validation from people outside the fandom too much. We will always be considered weirdos, a Western Vocaloid song will never win a Grammy and that's okay. Please stop sending paragraphs explaining Vocaloid to people who couldn't care less!

Vocaloid 6 Editor are actually quite successful. At least in the professional environment like studios. Most of the japanese producers seems to enjoy much needed QoL change and overall positive change that yamaha has been made but V5 is kinda questionable at best. I generally talking about software optimization and over all performance, which v5 are well known for clunky response and crash prone editor. If i have to compared them to something like OS. The V6 is more like a Windows 10, V4 is more like a windows 7, and V5 is....Windows "Me"... so there is a fair share of love n hate relationship and that's ok in my opinion.
Also you nailed the point of the vocal synths design. Not all vsynth companies tried or "pretended" to sound realistic because that's not the point.

I have to point out that Vocaloid is just a music in the end, i have plenty of friends who have no idea about vocaloid and can still enjoyed the song and that's how it should be, let the context of music do the speaking. vocaloid is just part of the music.

 

[IO+]

I have been summoned from my social media sabbatical by bad takes about race and fandom

• So-called "blackwashing" will never, ever, ever be on the same level as whitewashing (at least in any of our lifetimes) because of the literal thousands of years of colorism and racism discriminating against people with darker skin tones. In almost every culture in the world, darker-skinned people are treated as less-than in nearly every metric- beauty, intelligence, merit, class, even more "concrete" things like income is often lower if your skin is darker. (There are a few exceptions, such as music or sports, but it should be noted that those tend to be entertainment fields which has its own implications). So the social dynamics behind a lighter-skinned character being drawn darker are vastly different than the opposite.
• When people on social media talk about "blackwashing characters", they're usually talking about two very different situations: The first is something like Disney (one of the biggest corporations in history) changing Ariel from white to Black in the live-action Little Mermaid remake. While the vast majority of outcry against this was just bald-faced racism, there were some people asking if taking a white story by white writers and musicians and just changing the lead to a Black woman really counts as meaningful Black representation, which is actually a pretty good question in my opinion. It's not like there's a shortage of Black creatives out there, maybe it would be better to just give them a chance to tell their own stories instead of just remaking old stuff with a few new faces! If we lived in a reasonable world, this would be what the term "blackwashing" would be used for. But we don't. So it's not. :(
• The other situation is random people online, very often Black and/or dark-skinned themselves, drawing or editing their favorite characters to look more like themselves because they are starved for representation. This is completely harmless fun and anyone who harasses these people- who are very often literal children!- is a dickhead.
• Whitewashing of characters in fanart online likewise generally refers to two different situations: There's the accidental or thoughtless lightening of skintones, as is often seen in fanart by Japanese and other East Asian artists. East Asia has a very long history of colorism that even predates European contact- to the point where "white skin" is sometimes seen as a sign of moral or even spiritual virtue- so these instances tend to be borne of the artists' unconscious biases coming through in their art more than any deliberate malice. While I think this is something everyone, including them, should work to unlearn- racism and colorism is a global phenomenon- being dogpiled online by foreigners who barely speak the same language as you is probably not going to be the best way to go about that.
• The other version is racists whitewashing characters purely to make the "blackwashers" mad. They also tend to make characters specifically blonde and blue-eyed, i.e. "Aryan", because these people are often literal Nazis as well. These losers know what they're doing and do not deserve your good will or patience. Car hammer explosion all of them.
  • It also shouldn't be left unsaid that while Black/dark skin fanart and edits is almost always made out of love and can often be beautiful and technically impressive just as standalone artworks, these pieces invariably look like dogshit. So, you know, in case you need any more differences between whitewashing and "blackwashing".
• "Person/People of Color" is a term coined in the United States- a country where whites are the majority, both numerically and politically- to refer to non-white people. Removed from that context, it's not really useful. A Japanese-American person is going to have a completely different life experience and relationship to whiteness/white people than a Japanese person born and raised in Japan. And that's especially in terms of media representation- in Japan, the vast majority of people you'll see in your mainstream media will be other Japanese people, while in America, your options are going to be much more limited and narrow. That's why I always have to laugh whenever nettouyo on Twitter say stuff like, "But you're taking away my Japanese representation for your Black representation " because they probably see a higher percentage of Japanese faces in their media than I do white faces here in America! So... yeah, if we're talking about East Asian characters from Western creators- Sonika and ANRI for example- I'd call those POC. But East Asian characters from East Asian media- like Miku or Teto or... the vast majority of vocal synth characters- I honestly would not call them POC because of the context they primarily exist in.
• Lastly, regarding Black!Miku taking away from actually Black characters like Asterian or Nyl or even Leon and Lola, I think that's a very fair criticism... but only if you're talking specifically about vocal synth fandom. Because for as popular as Miku and a couple of her friends are, vocal synthesis is still very niche and most of the characters we love are completely unknown to people outside spaces like these. Most people drawing Black Miku (or Brazilian Miku or whatever) probably aren't really fans of Vocaloid or any synth in particular, they just like that there's this cute character that can be and look however you want her to. She's basically Virtual Japanese Barbie for the 21st century in that way. That being said, I absolutely want synths like Asterian to get more use, and it does suck that we're still being inundated with cutesy teen pop idol voices! But I'm not a musician so

Side Yap

Also if you hate people changing character appearances, you'd hate how I draw Vocaloids lmaooooooo I don't even let them have unnatural hair and eye colors

There are some good points in your post, some exaggerated points, and some emotionally loaded framing mixed together.
It distinguishes between institutional power (Hollywood, media industries, history) and random fanart by individuals. That distinction matters. Also colorism is a real global phenomenon, not just a Western thing and yes. Online fandom arguments often collapse very different situations into one word like “blackwashing.”
You are right about “power imbalance” point. Historically, whitewashing was often tied to actual exclusion like non-white actors denied roles, darker skin treated as inferior, industries pushing European beauty standards, colonial influence etc. That’s real history. So saying “whitewashing and blackwashing are not historically equivalent” is basically true in a societal sense. But i don't think random fanartist drawing a dark-skinned version of a character does not have the same institutional power behind it as decades of Hollywood erasing minorities from media. That part is reasonable but there is a moral double standards in the comment for example, "Black edits are harmless fun" or "White edits are Ku Klux Klan supremacist." That’s fandom tribalism talking.The reality is quite messy. Some people genuinely just redesign characters for fun, some do it for aesthetics, some absolutely do it to provoke outrage(which is work so damn well lol). And yes..... some are genuinely racist. This is quite "sensitive" intent based on ideology: darker redesign = usually love/self-expression, lighter redesign = usually malicious/racist. Sometimes true. Definitely not always true.

One thing i have to point out the post heavily depends on an American framework of race and exports it globally. Because race discourse really does get weird when Americans apply U.S. racial politics universally to countries with very different histories. For example: Japanese media is primarily made for Japanese audiences. Thai media for Thai audiences. Korean media for Koreans. etc. Their representation dynamics are not identical to America’s. The “POC” discussion in the post is actually fair criticism. “Person of Color” makes less sense outside societies where “white vs non-white” is the dominant social structure.

Another thing worth mentioning people online sometime treat fictional characters as political territory. That’s why these arguments become so emotionally charged. For many fans. Changing a character’s appearance feels symbolic, not literal. One side sees “finally someone that looks like me.” The other side sees: “why alter existing characters instead of making new ones?”The Ariel example is interesting because both arguments can coexist: racist backlash absolutely existed, but the “why not invest in original Black stories?” criticism is also legitimate. Those are different criticisms, but fandom culture often smashes them together.
Most normal people don’t actually think darker skin makes someone “inferior.” The problem is that societies across history often acted that way structurally, even if individuals didn’t consciously believe it and honestly, there is plenty of a good example of how colorism can exist without Western race politics being the main cause which you can see it in skin-whitening products everywhere, beauty ads favoring lighter skin, "can you re-touch my picture to make me white?" or “working under the sun = lower class” associations, celebrities usually being lighter-skinned, comments about people getting darker after outdoor work.
That’s colorism more than “racial hatred.” Historically in many Asian societies, lighter skin became associated with wealth, indoor work, nobility, higher social class. Meanwhile darker skin got associated with farm labor, outdoor work, poverty. That existed in parts of Asia even before European colonial influence. Europe later amplified global beauty standards, but it didn’t invent every form of color preference. So when that pasted post says darker skin has often been socially disadvantaged, that part is "broadly" true historically but where online discourse gets annoying is when people jump from "colorism exists" to "therefore every disagreement about race-swapped characters is racism." Those are not the same thing. A person can fully respect Black people, oppose racism, and still dislike certain corporate race-swaps because they feel artificial or marketing-driven.

Likewise, someone can enjoy reinterpretations of characters without trying to erase anyone. Internet arguments flatten all nuance into “good people vs evil people,” which is why these discussions become exhausting fast. Also, there is plenty of place is ethnically and culturally very different from African “Black” identity, even if many Southeast Asians tan darker naturally because of climate and genetics. So “dark skin” and “Black” are not interchangeable concepts globally. That’s another thing Western internet discourse often oversimplifies.

 

[Alphonse]

People complaining about calling non-Vocaloids Vocaloids is annoying, the Japanese fandom does it all the time. It's "Vocacolle," not "Onnseigouseicolle!"

The Japanese fandom and the English fandom don't have to be the same. Japanese people use vocalo (NOT Vocaloid) to mean vocalsynth, so they *are* making a distinction. We have an English word for vocalsynth, we can use it.

 

[Tortoiseshel]

So saying “whitewashing and blackwashing are not historically equivalent” is basically true in a societal sense. But i don't think random fanartist drawing a dark-skinned version of a character does not have the same institutional power behind it as decades of Hollywood erasing minorities from media. That part is reasonable but there is a moral double standards in the comment for example, "Black edits are harmless fun" or "White edits are Ku Klux Klan supremacist." That’s fandom tribalism talking.The reality is quite messy. Some people genuinely just redesign characters for fun, some do it for aesthetics, some absolutely do it to provoke outrage(which is work so damn well lol). And yes..... some are genuinely racist. This is quite "sensitive" intent based on ideology: darker redesign = usually love/self-expression, lighter redesign = usually malicious/racist. Sometimes true. Definitely not always true.

The Black teen on Twitter drawing Black anime characters cannot hurt you. And neither can the bad faith ragebaiter for that matter. That's what I mean when I call them harmless fun. They literally do not have the societal power to harm anyone, which is very much not true of the opposite. Even unintentional, non-malicious instances of whitewashing can be (and often are) harmful because they reinforce colorist/racist societal standards. I absolutely have a moral double standard about this, because reality itself has a double standard. If you genuinely prefer lighter redesigns of darker skinned characters, I'm sorry to say but you may have some colorist/racist beliefs that you should be looking into unlearning. That doesn't make you personally a bad person, it's just the natural consequence of living in a racist, colorist society.

Also I know American racial categories don't transfer cleanly to all cultures, but anti-Blackness is global and I'm just never going to give even a fraction of a shit if some light-skinned Japanese person in Japan is personally offended at dark-skinned recolors of Japanese characters because, as I said in my original post, they probably see more light-skinned Japanese faces in their mainstream media than I, a white American, see white American faces in mine.

Like... Kim, there's people that are dying

---

Re: Vocaloid vs vocalsynth, you can't really fight genericization. I don't really like it, but it happens.

 

[Alphonse]

The Black teen on Twitter drawing Black anime characters cannot hurt you. And neither can the bad faith ragebaiter for that matter. That's what I mean when I call them harmless fun. They literally do not have the societal power to harm anyone, which is very much not true of the opposite. Even unintentional, non-malicious instances of whitewashing can be (and often are) harmful because they reinforce colorist/racist societal standards. I absolutely have a moral double standard about this, because reality itself has a double standard. If you genuinely prefer lighter redesigns of darker skinned characters, I'm sorry to say but you may have some colorist/racist beliefs that you should be looking into unlearning. That doesn't make you personally a bad person, it's just the natural consequence of living in a racist, colorist society.

Also I know American racial categories don't transfer cleanly to all cultures, but anti-Blackness is global and I'm just never going to give even a fraction of a shit if some light-skinned Japanese person in Japan is personally offended at dark-skinned recolors of Japanese characters because, as I said in my original post, they probably see more light-skinned Japanese faces in their mainstream media than I, a white American, see white American faces in mine.

Like... Kim, there's people that are dying

Somehow I feel like you'd not be okay if an East Asian American wanted to take a character from South Asian media or African media and make them East Asian. You're not owed representation from other countries' media, ESPECIALLY when those countries are majority non-white.

Hold on, you're not even a person of color but you're gonna tell other people, including me, a black woman, that we have "bad takes" on race and lecture us about "global" "anti-blackness"? When my take is informed by my actual experience? This has to be a bit.

 

[lIlI]

This topic has gone beyond the scope of this thread/forum, I request everyone take this conversation off-site.

 

[sunnyp4rk]

The Japanese fandom and the English fandom don't have to be the same. Japanese people use vocalo (NOT Vocaloid) to mean vocalsynth, so they *are* making a distinction. We have an English word for vocalsynth, we can use it.

I am also of this opinion (I blame the autism for making me be pedantic) but like Tortoiseshel said, Vocaloid has kind of become a generic trademark type thing within the fanbase a la Band-aid for any type of bandage, Kleenex for any type of tissue, and so on and so forth. I don't blame new people for calling UTAUs Vocaloids, unless you've been in here forever. Then you should know better by now lol

 

[Heruru Meruru]

At least on Nico Nico people still put other vocal synths in tags like "Vocaloud" or "Tales of Vocaloid", probably since creating new tags for every engine would be an enormous hassle.

 

[WyndReed]

Using Vocaloid for all vocal synths used to bother me, but after seeing the majority of use coming from people who are newer fans or fans who aren't that deep into the vocal synth fandom/culture it bothers me less.

 

[junky]

Re: Vocaloid vs vocalsynth, you can't really fight genericization. I don't really like it, but it happens.

The Japanese fandom and the English fandom don't have to be the same. Japanese people use vocalo (NOT Vocaloid) to mean vocalsynth, so they *are* making a distinction. We have an English word for vocalsynth, we can use it.

I agree it wouldn't be a problem if the same people who dislike calling vocal synths Vocaloids didn't also constantly complain about vsynths being niche, as I feel how much the fandom overcomplicates things is a massive contributor to that. I feel they aren't very good at outreach.

The average outsider won't remember 900 different vsynths. If I was introducing someone to Vocaloid I wouldn't even name drop SynthV, until after they showed genuine interest, but vsynth fans always send paragraphs to people with little to no interest, it pisses people off, it's really embarrassing. I feel "it's a program where you make music with virtual vocalists that often have cute characters attached' is a decent summary.

Most Teto fans probably don't even know what the SynthV interface looks like..and that's okay! The same is true for Miku fans and the Vocaloid interface, some people are just here for the cute girls and that's okay. I say this as someone who adores male, foreign, and other niche Vocaloids a ton (vs-m701 of all banks is one of my favorites lmao.)

It sucks when a younger, newer, or casual fan says something along the lines of "teto is my favorite vocaloid lol :)" and the replies are full of grown adults getting mad at them.

 

[PunkishBear]

It sucks when a younger, newer, or casual fan says something along the lines of "teto is my favorite vocaloid lol :)" and the replies are full of grown adults getting mad at them.

Hell, I’ve seen longtime, not-casual fans say something offhand like “my favorite Vocaloids are MEIKO, Big Al, and KAFU” and get hit with a rando going “ERM… ACTUALLYYYY”. There’s a line between informing others and just being pedantic.

Along this line I once saw someone go “Teto is not a Vocaloid, she’s actually like Akita Neru or Yowane Haku!” which, even with the 2ch origin connection, feels more misleading than calling her a vocaloid.

Anyway, some of my own unpopular opinions:

• I don’t mind vocal synths remaining niche. I’m not pro-gatekeeping or anything either, I just don’t feel the need for it to go mainstream or even recapture former glory. There’s lots of producers making lots of good music, and that’s all I need.
• I’m tired of the Teto/Teto SV/TetoMiku duet backlash. It’s dying down at this point at least, but I don’t wanna read the words “tetoslop” ever again.
• I love gabber and breakcore and speedcore… but I can’t stand most of Cosmo’s really fast stuff. Not even Disappearance or Intense Voice. It just feels like the songs were made to be fast first and actually interesting to listen to more than once like… fifth. I miss his rock and baroque pop stuff. (Raid Boss: Cathestropic Love, MOW MOW ABDUCTION, and Sadistic.Music Factory are some examples of his speedcore that I DO like)
• I never really “got” Akita Neru, even though I understand why she’s made a comeback while Yowane Haku hasn’t. (How would you tune Yowane Haku to fit today’s scene?) Now, if she had a voicebank sourced from cellphone beeps…

 

[bibbs]

Vocaloid has kind of become a generic trademark type thing within the fanbase a la Band-aid for any type of bandage, Kleenex for any type of tissue, and so on and so forth.

vocaloid is the vaseline of vocal synths