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Unpopular Opinions

Blue Of Mind

The world that I do not know...
Apr 8, 2018
705
I believe that Crypton is making games based on their own Piapro characters moreso than Piapro Studio NT.
Yeah, that's the kind of thing Crypton seem to be wasting* too much time on these days. Same thing with stuff like the Pokemon collab. While I love Pokemon and the collab is adorable, it's not exactly what the fans have been asking for over the last few years.

*I'm always down for new Miku games, but we could do with a new Project Diva soon, or maybe even a new spinoff similar to Project Mirai.
 

nene

OSTER project fan!!!
Oct 13, 2023
93
I feel like Crypton knows that in their current state they could probably never release a new voicebank again after their NT banks. 🤔

Miku is so much of a brand-mascot that they don't really have to think about their products meaningfully. Like, even Project Sekai, which used Cryptonloids as a launchpad, has given us some bad tuning and half-baked showcases of their talents.... I'm sure with how many years they've been doing this too- it's easy to use existing synth material you already have avalible or provide keys to old software you made > developing something truly new.

This is just my opinion though, feel free to dissagree/comment back. 🙌💖
 

Rylitah

kiyoteru enthusiast
Staff member
Moderator
Apr 8, 2018
577
I think even if Crypton was still actively pushing out updates for NT, they wouldn't bother with AI.

Miku (and by extension their other characters)'s uniqueness comes from her robotic tone. The whole point of NT was to make essentially the best Miku, since (forewarning, I have no source for this next bit; it's something I've heard parroted among the community for years though) apparently fans were disappointed in her V3 for not sounding enough like her. Whether that's true or not though, they did confirm that they didn't update Miku to V5 because they thought she didn't sound enough like herself on that engine. AI has always been something I'm positive they would never bother with, especially because they're so strict on how they want Miku to sound on a base level. They encourage a lot of different derivative Mikus, but for an official product, something coming from solely Crypton themselves, I think AI has never been on the table.

It's because of that that I think NT pretty much is the end goal. I wouldn't go as far as to say that they're embarrassed or ashamed of it since they're clearly still using it in Project Sekai, and admittedly the lack of news and updates on it (especially regarding the... other five vocals that they have yet to release for it) is weird, but I really don't think there will be anything after NT, at least not for a very long time. And they can afford that, because like nene was saying, Miku pretty much sells herself. Synth V and any other synth engine out there no matter how many updates and new features they get isn't competition - Crypton hasn't been competing.
 

Granata

*Luna fan number one
Jul 30, 2022
80
Is anyone else bothered by Crypton's current trajectory of just hawking Miku out as a mascot character, rather than actively trying to upgrade her VB to modern vocal synth standards? I know she's always been a mascot character available to throw on tons of merch, but NT seems to be dead as a program in truly active development, and we've had no rumours or whispers about other improvements such as an AI bank.
Yeah I'm very bothered by that as well. If it wasn't for Project Sekai Crypton would be even more dead. In terms of recent vb sales AHS suprassed Crypton, Kamitsubaki might too on long-term, and Crypton's kinda doing nothing about it
 

Blue Of Mind

The world that I do not know...
Apr 8, 2018
705
From this perspective, it sounds like Crypton is almost in the same position Nintendo is today, where they don't worry too much about actively competing with other companies because they've long cornered a specific niche in the market. In Crypton's case, it sounds like they want to stick with standard VBs for the foreseeable future (and in all fairness, banks where you still have to tune everything still have their pros - a lot more freedom when it comes to output for one, compared to AI VBs).
 

AmazingStrange39

Miku-Avanna-Gumi enthusiast
May 23, 2019
289
I think even if Crypton was still actively pushing out updates for NT, they wouldn't bother with AI.

Miku (and by extension their other characters)'s uniqueness comes from her robotic tone. The whole point of NT was to make essentially the best Miku, since (forewarning, I have no source for this next bit; it's something I've heard parroted among the community for years though) apparently fans were disappointed in her V3 for not sounding enough like her. Whether that's true or not though, they did confirm that they didn't update Miku to V5 because they thought she didn't sound enough like herself on that engine. AI has always been something I'm positive they would never bother with, especially because they're so strict on how they want Miku to sound on a base level. They encourage a lot of different derivative Mikus, but for an official product, something coming from solely Crypton themselves, I think AI has never been on the table.

It's because of that that I think NT pretty much is the end goal. I wouldn't go as far as to say that they're embarrassed or ashamed of it since they're clearly still using it in Project Sekai, and admittedly the lack of news and updates on it (especially regarding the... other five vocals that they have yet to release for it) is weird, but I really don't think there will be anything after NT, at least not for a very long time. And they can afford that, because like nene was saying, Miku pretty much sells herself. Synth V and any other synth engine out there no matter how many updates and new features they get isn't competition - Crypton hasn't been competing.
Yeah, I definitely agree with this- Crypton's kind of on its own wavelength and doesn't feel the need to follow the crowd. I'd love to see them do some cool innovation though, even if it's not necessarily in the realm of AI synthesis. A unique new feature, or a new engine with a different approach, could be very cool.
 

pico

robot enjoyer
Sep 10, 2020
530
I think I disagree with this overarching sentiment that Crypton is either a) at a loss due to NT's condition or b) failing as a whole due to the lack of new VB releases.

I think the reality of the situation is that development of products is ongoing, but development is difficult and Crypton happens to be a company dedicated to preserving the particular Miku that we know well, rather than piggybacking on an existing technology for increased revenue.

Here's an alternative way to frame it-- they don't need the money because Miku is so popular on her own, so we won't get VST products that don't align with their vision of what Miku is supposed to be.

Tangentially, it's not as if the people that develop VSTs are the same people negotiating marketing deals with the Pokemon company. Time is not being lost in one direction or another. If you are upset that Project DIVA hasn't come out, take it up with SEGA, not Crypton. Project Sekai is making more money than Project DIVA's releases ever could, so this is really a non-issue for the game companies.

Waiting for an AI release is definitely misguided for this reason. I feel relatively strongly there will be news on NT in the relatively near future.
 

AmazingStrange39

Miku-Avanna-Gumi enthusiast
May 23, 2019
289
I think I disagree with this overarching sentiment that Crypton is either a) at a loss due to NT's condition or b) failing as a whole due to the lack of new VB releases.

I think the reality of the situation is that development of products is ongoing, but development is difficult and Crypton happens to be a company dedicated to preserving the particular Miku that we know well, rather than piggybacking on an existing technology for increased revenue.

Here's an alternative way to frame it-- they don't need the money because Miku is so popular on her own, so we won't get VST products that don't align with their vision of what Miku is supposed to be.

Tangentially, it's not as if the people that develop VSTs are the same people negotiating marketing deals with the Pokemon company. Time is not being lost in one direction or another. If you are upset that Project DIVA hasn't come out, take it up with SEGA, not Crypton. Project Sekai is making more money than Project DIVA's releases ever could, so this is really a non-issue for the game companies.

Waiting for an AI release is definitely misguided for this reason. I feel relatively strongly there will be news on NT in the relatively near future.
oh, i hope so, would be nice to get more news on nt.

but yes. miku is miku and she doesn't really need to be anyone else.
 

Heruru Meruru

THE v@SHFUCKER Dearly Stars
Honestly, Vocaloid6 AI (particularly the straight ports) and especially Cevio/Voisona still sound plenty artificial, no more human than previous versions of Vocaloid. Only real difference is that it can do the tuning for you and for Vocaloid you can get multilanguage without recording new samples. Miku doesn't necessarily need to move to an ultra realistic engine like SynthV, just going back to Vocaloid should have her sound like her usual self and much better than NT.
 

AmazingStrange39

Miku-Avanna-Gumi enthusiast
May 23, 2019
289
Honestly, Vocaloid6 AI (particularly the straight ports) and especially Cevio/Voisona still sound plenty artificial, no more human than previous versions of Vocaloid. Only real difference is that it can do the tuning for you and for Vocaloid you can get multilanguage without recording new samples. Miku doesn't necessarily need to move to an ultra realistic engine like SynthV, just going back to Vocaloid should have her sound like her usual self and much better than NT.
that's true, we've seen that with una and the zola project

and i guess in that case we might get piapro studio for v6

although they'd probably have to overhaul everything because of what a big whiplash v5 and v6 are compared to v2-4
 

lIlI

Staff member
Moderator
Apr 6, 2018
855
The Lightning Strike
As awesome as it is to see Vocaloid producers getting their songs performed at major concerts like Coachella, there's also a conversation to be had about how Crypton exploits the unpaid work of small artists with competitions that offer no prize money, and major events where zero pay goes to the actual musicians behind their setlist. Miku as a concept of uniting and empowering people with creativity is exceptional, but companies behind her often fail to do the bare minimum to support the artists they wouldn't exist without.
 

Granata

*Luna fan number one
Jul 30, 2022
80
What a coincidence, just last week someone irl asked me if the producers get paid for their songs being played live. I never thought of this before but that irl was rightfully asking. According to Miku Expo website the producers get a 100k yen voucher for music production tools. That's a worth of 647 USD / 609€ which would be fine if it was actual money and not a weirdass voucher

But that convo made me think a lot about commissioned songs in general, like how much do you get for writing a concert theme, an anniversary song, a pjsk commission etc. You don't really find anything about that online
 

mobius017

Aspiring ∞ Creator
Apr 8, 2018
1,995
According to Miku Expo website the producers get a 100k yen voucher for music production tools. That's a worth of 647 USD / 609€ which would be fine if it was actual money and not a weirdass voucher
Given Crypton sells music production tools, it sounds like they set it up so some of the money would go straight back to them.
:ring_ani_lili:
I think this is the description of the prize that's being discussed:
100,000 JPY voucher for music production products from SONICWIRE
It's basically a 100,000 JPY Sonicwire gift card.

How one feels about that is sort of a matter of perspective. It is being ensured that you redeem your prize at their store, which doesn't give you the flexibility to shop elsewhere.

On the other hand, gift cards are, from an accounting perspective, debt that the company is imposing on itself and giving to you. (That's the same for Target gift cards, iTunes gift cards, etc.) You aren't receiving money and giving it back, you're having the company be indebted to you and then cancelling out that debt by having them provide goods/services.

At the end of the day, you're still getting 100,000 JPY worth of free stuff from a place with a wide selection. *shrug*

One interesting aspect of this: at least in the US, prizes have to be declared as income on your taxes (e.g., if you win the lottery, which you receive in currency, the government takes about half of it). With a gift card, I would think you sidestep that hassle completely, since you're receiving someone else's debt rather than money. So you might be able to look at a gift card prize as avoiding a pain at tax time, as well as a way of ensuring you get the full value of the prize you won.

(This is actually something I've given some thought to, and I hate the nitty-gritty pain of tax season, so I thought I'd drop my two cents here.)

Update:

Regarding contest songs, the terms of the contests I've entered have basically been that you sign over some rights to CFM so they can adjust/perform your song in future concerts. A producer who wins gets to have their song performed live. CFM also may provide some financial compensation when the song is played, although they are not obligated to do this, and the compensation should be viewed as a courtesy rather than as royalties.

Personally, I've never entirely liked the idea of signing rights to a song over, although you basically have to sign at least some rights over so that CFM can play it/make a derivative work of your song (the concert performance). But I think producers do it for the basically unparalleled exposure, as well as maybe perceiving it as an honor and one of the pinnacle ways to participate in the vocal synth fandom.

I'm not sure how commissioned songs would work--I assume that a producer would be formally paid and would have to similarly sign some rights over.

Regarding non-contest songs (i.e., the other songs performed at concerts), I've never found out how those songs are chosen/what terms for them might be. But I assume there must be some sort of agreement/arrangement there between CFM and those producers--if there weren't, and those songs were just grabbed off Nico Nico without any communication with their creators, I'm fairly sure it wouldn't be legal. And given the two different license schemes offered/explained on Piapro (the Japanese PCL, as well as the Creative Commons license provided for the rest of the world--although anyone can use either), as well as the "courtesy fee" for the contest winners, something as illegal as that doesn't seem likely to me. It probably also helps explain why the same producers' songs seem more likely to keep getting included in concerts--aside from the fact that those producers are good, CFM already may have a legal history with them, so it's easier to work with them when getting the ability to play new songs at future concerts. Doesn't mean new people don't/can't get into concerts, it's just more likely that the established folks will get their songs into concerts because it's easier.

AFAIK, the credits after each concert also list producers who seem to be visiting the show, and this list seems to line up with the producers whose songs were included; I also think I actually heard somewhere that producers whose songs are included in the show get offered a ticket to come see it. Possibly that is considered in the realm of compensation for having your song in the show, too.
 
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InstallGentoo

Aspiring Fan
May 7, 2021
49
Personally, I've never entirely liked the idea of signing rights to a song over, although you basically have to sign at least some rights over so that CFM can play it/make a derivative work of your song (the concert performance). But I think producers do it for the basically unparalleled exposure, as well as maybe perceiving it as an honor and one of the pinnacle ways to participate in the vocal synth fandom.
It's kind if like making deal with record labels, just make sure you don't retroactively or futureactively sign your rights over to whatever you're dealing with (read the fine print). For me I most likely need to have subsistence income in the near future so stuff I make need to generate some profit. In this situation it may be desirable to make a lifetime contract with CFM with garranteed cuts to xyz sales, but there is option to make a single agreement for singles or albums. It's most likely they communiate via email or on piapro website with their accounts. Those that have their songs featured most likely have prestablished contracts with CFM for those single songs which is why they reuse them, and some may have for future songs they make or any song they upload to the piapro website specified for CFM depending on whatever agreement they made with CFM.
How to make these contracts idk but just be careful and I guess be reasonably fluent in Japanese to understand what you're consenting to to make sure there isn't any misunderstandings and hard feelings.
 

Vector

Passionate Fan
Mar 6, 2022
127
Music royalties are very well-tread law, and are mandatory. You can cover and perform live any song you want, providing the compulsory royalties are paid. I don't know all of the intricacies of performance and mechancial royalties, and which apply to a band doing a live cover (with a vocal track that has additional associated legal oddity, since Crypton owns Miku's voice and licenses you to use it in the first place)...but the process is very cut and dry.

In the US, ASCAP and BMI are legally empowered to collect royalties for all public performance of music (even if the songwriter isn't a member) and they are famously overzealous. Japan has JASRAC, which is similar. You can't operate a venue hosting live music without them being involved. The rates they're allowed to collect are set by the government and are universal.

So anything at Magical Mirai or Miku Expo is either 1) already being distributed by a label or independent distributor such as DistroKid or LANDR 2) was onboarded onto Crypton's KARENT label after an agreement between them and the artist was signed or 3) was a contest winner and the artist may have signed over additional rights to Crypton, which is a private matter between the two of them. With all of that registration (which can be publicly looked up) in order, the royalty agencies collect whatever they are legally obligated to.

The venue usually has a blanket license with the collector and logs what's performed, reporting it.

Personally, I'd say getting to see your song in a concert is worth more than any reasonable dollar value you'd find in music licensing land.
 
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