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Unpopular Opinions

cafenurse

Still misses Anri Rune
Apr 8, 2018
1,805
23
USA
Really, what I don't get is how he's still getting lumped into the "edgy" group. None of his current music is even remotely edgy tbh?
ugh YES. I see a lot of people say "I don't like edgy western producers like circus, crusher and ghost!!" but like....Circus hasn't made any "edgy" music in a long time. Ya'll are stuck in 2012
I like his newer stuff and older stuff. I think I like his older style more but his new music sounds much more professional and polished.
 
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frankensalad

Banned
Feb 27, 2019
103
The reason people keep lumping Circus in with the edgelords is because "I hate edgy Vocaloid music" is just "I hate popular Vocaloid music but if I come out and admit that I'll look like a hipster so I have to come up with some unifying quality all popular Vocaloid music has to attribute my distaste to" in disguise.

nnnn.gif

Anyway, since this is an unpopular opinion thread, here's my ACTUALLY unpopular opinion: Western Vocaloid music isn't edgy enough. I love happy poppy shit as much as the next gay, but until I find a western Vocaloid producer that goes as hard as Babuchan I will never feel anything.

 

___

Oct 8, 2019
1,548
I love Babuchan :LOL:

Eh, I think both sides can be edgy but but in different ways. The thing is that many """edgy"" producers here are just dipping their toes into music production and it shows, I think thats the main difference~
 
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Mika

crying over Rune Factory 6
Jul 5, 2018
286
26
Germany
Not even sure if this is unpopular, but regarding the stand on "edgy music" in the english vocaloid community... why do people have to criticize that the music is "edgy" anyway? We all know that Circus-P was in a really bad headspace back then (which resulted in Goodbye and that song is.. telling) and both Ghost and Creep-P suffer from depression. "Edgy" music is their way to cope (probably) so criticizing it just because of that is not cool. Everyone has a different music taste and that's good, but I often hear people say their music is bad just because of that and... yeah. Don't do that. Just don't listen to it if you don't like it.
 
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Sep 21, 2019
1,395
Not even sure if this is unpopular, but regarding the stand on "edgy music" in the english vocaloid community... why do people have to criticize that the music is "edgy" anyway? We all now that Circus-P was in a really bad headspace back then (which resulted in Goodbye and that song is.. telling) and both Ghost and Creep-P suffer from depression. "Edgy" music is their was to cope (probably) so criticizing it just because of that is not cool. Everyone has a different music taste and that's good, but I often hear people say their music is bad just because of that and... yeah. Don't do that. Just don't listen to it if you don't like it.
Oh, wow. Learning this makes me feel much differently about their music than I did before. Now I feel badly for them… :(
Also, I strongly agree with “don’t like, don’t listen”. There are some people (looking at you, lolcow and Twitter) who don’t seem to understand that if they don’t like something, they don’t need to be nasty about it. I don’t know if any of the producers have received nasty comments (except for Crusher who was made fun of on lolcow), but I know a lot of artists have to go through things just because someone didn’t like their content and decided to be a jerk about it.
(Sorry for the long post!)
 

uncreepy

👵Escaped from the retirement home
Apr 9, 2018
1,618
Personally, I feel like complaining about edgy Vocaloid music is like complaining that someone likes horror movies instead of romance comedies or something. I think what makes people complain is the fact that the producers who make the music are more popular/receiving more attention than they deem them worthy of. Like "Horror is stupid, why are you people putting them on a pedestal?" kind of thing. They probably want an English equivalent to Mitchie-M becoming super popular instead.

Like, I also think it's "dumb" to think that people are purposely making eDgY songs just to freak people out. Why would you spend hours writing lyrics, composing a song, mixing it, making art for it if you were a phony and didn't believe in the project? I think a lot of Western Vocaloid fans/producers seem like they are kind of at a disadvantage in life (like being LGBT or having mental problems or being bullied and things like that), why would they relate to happy peppy songs? I know I sure can't relate to love/happiness and only feel emotions from creepy things (a mixture of joyous amusement and surprised goosebumps), does that mean I'm just a sheep following the edgy Vocaloid trend?

Add in the factor that Vocaloid songs are usually also visual entertainment and have a music video to go along with it. If you're gonna make a horror song, might as well go Lady Gaga equivalent over-the-top and give it the craziest artwork you can think of.

Another thing: Some people think that the edgy songs sound bad and that's why they hate their popularity. It could be a mixture of being a beginner producer and needing to learn more theory. But I think it could also be comparable to a genre that isn't very appreciated in the mainstream like black metal. Just cause you think it sounds like cats wailing by trashcans in an alley doesn't mean people don't like it and listen to it a lot. Would you go and tell someone who's in a mathrock band that their genre is a joke and they should stop because they're making the rest of us musicians look bad? I doubt it. So why keep slapping the edgy Vocaloid producers in the face for living their best life as a creator and making music for themselves/their fans and they don't even know who you are and that you have a vendetta against them for not living up to your arbitrary standards? : / I grow tired of this conversation, honestly.
 

Blue Of Mind

The world that I do not know...
Apr 8, 2018
734
My unpopular opinion is that too many people bitch about the edgy songs now. :tongue: They've always been around, it was never unique to Western producers, and this discussion has cropped up multiple times in the past on this thread.

Like, I also think it's "dumb" to think that people are purposely making eDgY songs just to freak people out. Why would you spend hours writing lyrics, composing a song, mixing it, making art for it if you were a phony and didn't believe in the project? I think a lot of Western Vocaloid fans/producers seem like they are kind of at a disadvantage in life (like being LGBT or having mental problems or being bullied and things like that), why would they relate to happy peppy songs? I know I sure can't relate to love/happiness and only feel emotions from creepy things (a mixture of joyous amusement and surprised goosebumps), does that mean I'm just a sheep following the edgy Vocaloid trend?
Not a Vocaloid producer, but I find this comment interesting because back when I was severely depressed (preteen and teen years), I used to listen to happy, peppy songs and genres (eurodance, trance, happy hardcore, J-pop) a lot, and I still do now. If I was a musician, I would happily produce Vocaloid trance because as someone with depression and anxiety (the latter being a comorbid of autism), trance songs make me happy and help me negate the negative emotions which come from mental illness.

I do understand why Western producers who share my issues write songs about dark subjects, and it's not my place to criticise people for the subject matter they choose. But I do agree that complaining about edgy songs is a dead horse topic.
 

TheStarPalace

Hardcore Fan
Apr 8, 2018
485
It's a matter of giving way too much headspace to the things you don't like and not enough support to the things you do. Most of these people have given up entirely on Western vocaloid producers because of some bad experience or whatever and feel the need to make it everyone's problem.
 

Aia

DDR-tist
Jul 14, 2019
374
21
The Internet™
Circus-P's music has changed, there's no debate in that. The thing is that his music has become more complex production-wise and lyrically, I like to think. In other words, I think his music has matured as he has. With his most popular older works, he literally made those when he was a teenager. I love them as much as his newer stuff, but I wouldn't call any of his songs in the Lucid era as masterpieces as everyone else does. People never deteriorate in their craft, only growth. There is still depth, okay? I see it. It's just presented differently than before, and I love and respect that 100%. He's just doing what he likes.
 

cafenurse

Still misses Anri Rune
Apr 8, 2018
1,805
23
USA
I'm so glad to see the opinion on edginess in the western fandom turn around because a handful of years ago in the general opinion was "Western producers are all too edgy and it needs to stop being no one wants to listen to that".
 
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Sep 21, 2019
1,395
I don't like edgy music and I don't listen to it (for the most part anyways). I'm not saying it's necessarily bad, but there are some things that do get touched upon that I feel like are better to be left alone. Also, it greatly depends on what kind of "edgy" we're referring to. Like, I find Neru's music to be edgy, but I think ones like "Lost One's Weeping" call attention to a problem; just look at the translation and look at the comments. (It's kinda saddening to see that so many people relate to it. :( ) (Also I just like Neru's rock music a lot jjfhjhfj don't @ me.)

(If you all saw my playlist of VocaUTAU stuff, you'd see I have a lot of "edgy" stuff still mixed in with positive stuff.)

I think the reason people complain so much about dark stuff in western fandom is because that's all YouTube wants to show you. Positive songs are harder to find because YouTube's algorithm is trash and so the positive stuff gets buried with only a handful of views. For some reason, with Japanese stuff you can easily find more of a variety.

I probably tend to care less about what the non-western sides of the fandom do, because I don't speak any language fluently other than English, and even though my Japanese is quite good, my brain just doesn't register Japanese lyrics the same way it does with English. :S
 

mobius017

Aspiring ∞ Creator
Apr 8, 2018
2,044
Personally, my working theory is that the reason people decry the Western fanbase's music as edgy stems from the fact that it's different from what they expect.

I'm not Japanese and I only know bits and pieces about Japanese culture, but my impression is that there's a push there toward people getting along, being part of the group, and dealing with painful/difficult stuff in a way that's quiet or invisible. (I've put together this impression from things like the admonishments you see regularly enough in anime for people to try to smile and make the best of things, as well as from stuff I've read about some schools there having rules about uniform hair color, and possibly other things.) I imagine this is part of the reason why happier songs are easier to come by from Japanese producers, as well possibly as why songs about difficult subjects are sometimes sort of masked inside upbeat melodies.

(Edit: I mean, isn't that basically what "This Is the Happiness and Peace of Mind Committee" is about? The lyrics don't really tell us if the song refers to a cultural mandate to be happy, or if it's some other mandate to be happy. But it's obvious that happiness is being forced. And all of that aside, it's certainly a song with dark lyrics inside an upbeat melody.)

In the west, by contrast (or at least in the U.S., if I'm honest and talk about what I know better), we don't have that kind of push to that degree. It seems like there's a wider range here within which people can be different and still not be regarded as outright weird, dark themes in conversation/media are by no means hard to come by, and complaining about what-have-you is almost a conversational style (Actually, it's a decent way of getting by in awkward social situations, if you can find something that both you and the strangers around you commonly dislike. Is the weather poor? Is traffic bad? Is the local sports team performing terribly? Congrats--you have instant camaraderie.). In any case, westerners seem more open about these less-palatable topics, and I think that gets reflected in the music they make. At least that's my theory.

Continuing from there, the Japanese fandom is where the roots of Vocaloid/vocal synths are, and lots of its iconic/famous songs, as well as most of its songs by percentage, come from there. So when a new fan goes on YouTube, for instance, he/she starts listening to stuff and most likely hits a stream of happy Japanese stuff. And then, just as they're thinking that this is fun and good, they run into something from the western sphere, and it quite possibly winds up being a lot different. Looking into a few other western songs, they soon enough find that there seem to be a lot of songs that run this way, and they develop a negative view of the western fandom in general.

Personally, I don't think that edgier songs necessarily are bad things. Positive songs can lift people's spirits, or possibly provide an example or ideal toward which people might be inspired to work. At the same time, edgy songs can help both the artist and the listener cope with painful things, or the songs could contribute to beneficial changes in the broader culture by pointing out things that aren't working. So they both have the potential to do good things, even if they come at those things from different angles. (In a way, it's sort of like the difference between Superman and Batman, where the former is this straightlaced, lead-by-example type, and the latter works under the premise of "scare the crap outta the bad guys so they don't do bad things again.") Vocal synth music is just a part of the larger umbrella of music with vocals in general, and music incorporating vocals already spans a large spectrum of happier or darker stuff. As we do with music sung by humans, we should just pick the music we like.
 
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Leon

AKA missy20201 (Elliot)
Apr 8, 2018
1,044
Off topic a bit, BUT-- a little bit of salt here for yall today:

People who say things like "wow this Engrish cover is better than even Engloids, why aren't Engloids this good??" or "wow this UTAU is so much better than Engloids, Engloids suck!!" cannot possibly have experience with Engloids. I can't believe it. Making intelligible Engrish with JP loids requires such extensive phoneme editing and note splicing that people wouldn't believe. And UTAU English that's considered good (like CVVC, etc) pretty much does the transitions right there and even then people have to edit it.

Unfortunately a lot of work put out with Engloids is taken at base or close-to-base pronunciation. I stand by it that every Engloid (barring maybe like Sonika, but even then she's not a totally lost cause) has the potential to sound extremely fluid and understandable. But it requires the time and effort and practice to edit the phonemes, splice the notes, play with parameters, learn a voicebank's quirks and tricks on how to fix them. So seeing comments like that is really frustrating (although I never reply like "no you're wrong" because A. they didn't ask, I don't need to insert my opinion @ them, and B. it would be so stressful @ myself because I'm horrible at confrontation alsdkfsjdf)

It's also worth noting that a lot of popular Engloid users such as Circus etc have been doing God's work of editing phonemes to make their Engloid songs sound natural and as I noticed that happening more and more, it made me so happy. I guess it's similar to how back in the day of like 2010, JPloids weren't tuned much either a lot of the times.
 

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Oct 8, 2019
1,548
People who say things like "wow this Engrish cover is better than even Engloids, why aren't Engloids this good??"
As a side note, people who say "x" voicebank has such a good engrish......like......every voicebank is equally good at engrish, it's all on the user ( yeah some vbs have extra phonemes but as someone who works with such vbs, it just makes the job quicker and easier and they don't really have that huge of advantage compared to vbs who dont have them )
 
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Leon

AKA missy20201 (Elliot)
Apr 8, 2018
1,044
As a side note, people who say "x" voicebank has such a good engrish......like......every voicebank is equally good at engrish, it's all on the user ( yeah some vbs have extra phonemes but as someone who works with such vbs, its just makes the job quicker and easier and they don't really have that huge of advantage compared to vbs who dont have them )
Yes, yes, thank you!! Engrish is something that depends very little on the Vocaloid itself (accent can affect it I think, but only minorly) but more on the user and the work they put into it!

And yeah even with like Maika, you still have to edit her phonemes. Her English is very good but it's not done at the snap of a finger! LOL
 

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