FEE- CeVIO AI Talk announced by U-Stella Inc.

[peaches2217]

Totally understood, Tort! Apologies if my response came across badly as well. I've always thought it was somewhat distasteful that Sonika is as scantily clad as she is, but oh! She's 17!! And the Medium5 girls are... a whole thing. So yes, definitely the west isn't innocent, and plenty of the JP loids are perfectly great!

I am curious how this will come to a head, if it does, though.

Truth be told, I never saw Sonika as sexualized. I always thought her more "scantily clad" design was intended to look badass and confident more than sexy, but that might be a consequence of first seeing it when I was a young teenager. That said, I 100% see the underlying issue there. And Medium5 stan though I am, yeah, they're very... there's a lot of questionable things going on with the art. It's telling that the one character who's an adult is the one who's been lewded the least by official artists. I adore Haiyi, but her own artist seems to think she exists to give men fantasies.

God, there's so many things I'm gonna have to cancel now. But if it's for the sake of shutting down shit like this, it's worth it.

 

[pico]

I am curious how this will come to a head, if it does, though.

I don’t think anything will happen.

 

[poser]

jesus christ this is why i always get disappointed when they reveal a character to be underage cause i KNOW its gonna be taken by the degenerates in fandom spaces who think its ok to flaunt their immoral pedophilia

i had to unfollow tsuina chan and zunko's twitters because they kept reposting gross shit too

kind of hope this voice gets canned. this shit is too normalized in otaku spheres on both every cultural side is a genuine issue and this doesn't need to normalize it any more

 

[Prism]

I think this comes down to Japan's age of consent of 13 so to them they don't see it as underage. This is a very big problem in Japan and they have been pushes to raise it to 16 and they have local laws to stop under 18 prostitution and pressured sex. Still a very questionable decision from a business standpoint. She's kinda like a bigger more official akume iku.

Personally I think it is a big problem in the anime otaku community as a whole. I also don't think or would like to think that sakine meiko wasn't made to appeal to pedophiles but to appeal to the idol music that was popular with the CV series. Also I kinda hate that sonika is 17 because she doesn't look it. She looks like she's in her early 20's with her tattoos and with how much skin is showing

 

[Tortoiseshel]

Tortoiseshel, you may be new to this forum, but I'd like to thank you for leaving such eloquently written responses. Not only is it clear you did your research, but you also summed up my thoughts quite nicely and brought some good points to the table--to be completely honest, I never realized there was anything sketchy going on with Ruby nor Sonika because I typically don't pay much attention to the English Vocaloids as they generally don't meet my vocal synth needs, being a cover artist who primarily covers Japanese language songs. (Also, I did realize FEE being a child was unfortunately a huge selling point, but I didn't want to be the one to open that can of worms, so thank you for being the one to mention it.)

I've first-hand experienced a lot of shit talk for expressing my disgust over this element of otaku culture, so I'm glad to see someone speaking out about it. I also can confirm there are some pretty nasty overseas UTAU (I won't say who but if you know, you know) and got a lot of hate for saying this particular UTAU was just... yikes. I know I certainly haven't even seen the worst, but quite frankly, I'm glad.

Also, do you have the source for the official Sonika and Ruby artwork you're referring to? I always like to be able to verify my sources when possible--I wouldn't want to go telling someone else about this and just... not have the source, haha.

(Honestly, as someone who left DeviantArt due to both harassment and an influx of nasty artwork showing up on site, I'm surprised there's a lot of vocal synth designs that somehow I don't seem to notice what's questionable about them until someone points it out to me....)

Edit: I forgot to mention, since FEE is the first to blatantly do this, I can only hope this causes things to rear it's ugly head and that more people speak up about this so this digustingness becomes less common.)

Thank you for the kind words

The pieces for Sonika and Ruby I was thinking of aren't nearly as egregious as some other designs we could point to, which is why they only "make me raise my eyebrow", but I do feel they're examples of how pervasive these trends are. Sonika's updated boxart render features a visible g-string, as well as all those straps that give me a bit of a bondage-y vibe; her Chinese design trades her long pants in for cutoff short-shorts with garters and thigh-high sheer socks; and her Taiwanese design ditches the straps and g-string but gives her an even smaller top and more emphasized breasts. This anniversary design for Ruby, which features her in a form-fitting dress and underboob cleavage, bothers me more than any of the Sonika designs because she's at least supposed to be 17; Ruby meanwhile is designed to look like a younger teen, likely 14 or 15. I don't know why you'd put a 14- or 15-year old in a dress that emphasizes her legs and breasts so much.

 

[Blue Of Mind]

If there's any consolation, and it's easy to tell in this thread, lolicon (and shotacon by extension, because HOO BOY I can easily discuss the creepy shit surrounding VBs like Len, Piko and Fukase) has been increasingly marginalised within the wider Western anime fandom over the last decade. Back in 2010 or so, I can still remember some fans giving loli and shota a pass because that kind of art didn't involve real children, hence in many jurisdictions it wouldn't be considered CP.* But over the years, a lot more Westerners in particular have been chewing out those who either support or ignore it, because ultimately it's still about sexualising people who either are kids or are drawn to look like kids. Even some Japanese artists and fans are wising up to this as well, despite the cultural dissonances mentioned so far.

*It's probably worth mentioning that in some countries like Canada, cartoon porn in general is technically illegal.

Also, Sonika and Ruby were conceptualised as teenagers? All these years and I didn't know, like OOF.

 

[Nezuh]

I don’t think anything will happen.

this

Some people here are forgetting that we are talking about a Japanese product sold in Japan.
Nothing is going to happen lol
The website does not even have a section in english.

By the way, the official site is a complete maze. Where do people find the mentions of the model being "fully strippable"?
I read the features of the 3D model a few times (from here) but I can't find what they are talking about.

 

[MillyAqualine]

About SONiKa, I'd say she's like Lily -the kind of character who either both on voice and design or solely on design, would look more in their early or mid-twenties than 17 o_<"' So yeah it is weird... However, I felt just like peaches, as in not seeing SONiKa that sexualized all these years but more like Gumi in some designs, aka big badass design with a pinch of Western idol wannabe fashion sense (unlike the minors mentioned so far getting this poor treatment)

But talking about Taïwanese designs, I remember Prima's was eeehhhh....

But yeah, it is extremely concerning they don't even hide it anymore x_x"' And the worst is to see they go worse and worse in the gruesome OTL

 

[ikaroll]

Also, do you have the source for the official Sonika and Ruby artwork you're referring to?

I'm guessing they're referring to some of her redesigns, like the Taiwan and Standard V2 art, and the concept could prolly be found on the wiki (imo, its different from FEE for SONiKA, since SONiKA's outfits might have emulated similar outfits from late 2000s popstars, and not promoted as a sexdoll)

I'm just hoping the western fandom realizes that this isn't ok. The japanese fandom ofc will keep buying this stuff, the western fandom won't make a huge dent, but if we promote and support our own projects, maybe part of the fandom will move away from projects like this

(fair warning: i'm extra tired today so this might not have made sense, just ask me to clarify)

 

[Scarlet Illusion]

Hmm… now that it’s been pointed out to me, I do see how Sonika’s designs could be questionable. I never batted an eye before because I always thought she was a 20-something—I had no idea she was 17 until it was mentioned in this thread. Damn.
Also I always thought Ruby was supposed to be in her 20’s as well—I never would have thought she was 15?! So yeah, I’ll certainly have to agree that’s certainly not an outfit for a 15 year old. orz

I think this comes down to Japan's age of consent of 13 so to them they don't see it as underage. This is a very big problem in Japan and they have been pushes to raise it to 16 and they have local laws to stop under 18 prostitution and pressured sex.

I do want to point out the under 13 consent is actually only in a certain prefecture (that or some island owned by Japan)—I can’t speak to the rest of what you said, but I do also remember reading the age of consent (or the legal age to get married?) is different for males vs females. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think it’s ~15 for females and ~17 for males? I can’t remember, sorry. (Obviously, this still isn’t good, and the different ages is part of a whole other issue that I’m not trying to discuss.)
This stuff is a huge yikes, tbh.
(Also touch upon what Blue said, you know the sh*t with Len and some others must have been bad if the JPN equivalent of 4chan (2chan) decides to makes character to poke fun at those types of “fans”.)

 

[pico]

By the way, the official site is a complete maze. Where do people find the mentions of the model being "fully strippable"?

───人間の三大欲求「食欲」「睡眠欲」「性欲」をサポートするために現代に生まれた汎用型アンドロイド『カリカチュア』

From the booth page-- listing 'sexual desire' as one of the a "Caricature" robot fulfills.

The nude character sheet is on (link redacted by a mod) page.
(mod note: edited to remove link to nude sheet in accordance with rules and reasons stated prior in the thread by a different mod.) edit: sorry mods, that was very braindead of me suffice it to say it exists on the official site

The VRCHAT model BOOTH page is where the "strippable" comment comes from, I believe.
【For VRChat 3D Model】CCD-0500[FEE] - U-Stella Inc. - BOOTH

上着・インナー着脱可
Removable jacket and innerwear (it is translated officially to English as "removable jacket and underwear")

This carries over to the naming conventions of the model itself, seen below in the hierarchy:

So now the trouble is, I am unsure if you can actually expose FEE in an obliquely sexual way or if the intent is to be able to remove the modeled clothing for the sake of adding your own custom clothing and accessories. They do permit modification of the model. There are some FEE recolors on Twitter hanging out in vrchat.

My guess is that it is modeled the way you see in the reference sheet-- she's drawn as, like, a cohesive piece of skin, with the exception of belly button. That's the most horrifying sentence I've ever written, but that aside...

The fact that the model isn't necessarily explicit doesn't make the situation better. The implication is, still, oblique. 17 year olds are not adults, whether you're in Japan or the United States, and FEE, being a Caricature, has 'lore' that positions her as a sexual object. Official art exists of her that is ecchi, within a very reasonable definition. And the nudity, even if 'censored' by technicality, is still gratuitous. There's no way around it.

Shit sucks.

 

[ikaroll]

Kind of off topic from the previous conversation but I looked at her Cevio wiki page to see if anyone had expressed their thoughts there, and someone said that FEE’s page will be the first on that wiki to have a full blown controversy section

I really thought KAFU had some bad controversy surrounding her, but I guess not (or at least it was less known than FEE’s)

 

[Rylitah]

Unless I'm forgetting something (which is possible), KAFU's controversy is mostly just bad marketing (the early voicetype survey). For the most part everything else is just subtext and what people have assumed based off what we know of her development

There was worry that Kaf herself was uncomfortable with KAFU's existence because of the whole "I don't want her to have the same voice as me" thing, but she's come out later to say that it was mostly because she didn't want her fans to dislike her or KAFU if they sounded the exact same. I still think there's more they could've done to separate the two without just.... pitching KAFU up (like maybe go in with a voice acted tone to begin with), but Kaf was worried more about the reception than being uncomfortable with KAFU having the exact same voice as her. Since the JP and Western communities have starkly different opinions on this issue (they're happy she went this route, there are comments saying they're glad KAFU didn't end up sounding the same as her while Western opinion is the exact opposite and wishes it was the other way around), there would've been no winning either way. From a business perspective (target audience, her own fanbase and those most likely to buy her and make original content), Kaf made the right decision. It just shouldn't have been public and should've been decided privately before they ever thought to make a public survey.

I think Fee's just on a whole other level that doesn't really have to do with bad marketing or company unprofessionalism. I think there isn't really anything bad with KAFU's existence or care if people like/buy her, but Fee's just kinda... yeah.

 

[Cerāgi <º•]

Omg, I’m learning about Fee just now and the only thing I can say is ew . I severely hope the company behind Cevio AI WILL do something about it, ‘cause having an underage sexdoll as an available voice is really concerning, regardless of moe culture and different targets.
I also went through both the Booth page and their own site and saying I’m shocked is an euphemism, really; they explicitly stated they allow both sexual and violent depiction of her through streaming services (saying that the creators would just have to respect the rules of the choosen streaming platform), and their other characters on their site are presented through multiple illustrations in sexually allusive situations ….
This is definitely not right..

 

[Nezuh]

上着・インナー着脱可
Removable jacket and innerwear (it is translated officially to English as "removable jacket and underwear")

OMG, that completely flew under my radar when I read it before. Thank you so much for pointing that out.

Your post was very thorough btw

 

[sketchesofpayne]

If there's any consolation, and it's easy to tell in this thread, lolicon [...] has been increasingly marginalised within the wider Western anime fandom over the last decade. Back in 2010 or so, I can still remember some fans giving loli and shota a pass because that kind of art didn't involve real children, [...] But over the years, a lot more Westerners in particular have been chewing out those who either support or ignore it,

(Let me preface my comment that I do not support any lewd garbage and do not approve of underage material either explicit or implied.)

This is all making me feel old and jaded. I hear controversy over something "disgusting" and "shocking." I brace myself, but then I find out it's lolicon trash. I'm like, "Really?" (looks around), "This is what ruffles people's feathers these days? When I think of something shocking from the old days of the internet I think of something like... (goes quiet, gets a far-off stare and starts having war flashbacks)."

War Flashbacks

"What has been seen cannot be unseen."
(gunfire in the distance)
"I need some eye-bleach."
(artillery montage)
"[post deleted] mod comment: post your g*** and v*** sht somewhere else!"
(bombs falling out of planes)
"^Don't click the above link if you value your sanity."
(wounded being carried out on stretchers)
"Here's a new torrent file with all the NSFW material removed."
(plane dive-bombs through a hail of tracer fire)
"Make sure you have a banner-ad blocker enabled before going to that site."
(gas mask drills in the trenches)
"Sticky Post: Let me remind everyone of the rules. The old site was subject to an FBI takedown because someone posted stuff that got flagged even though we kept banning them and deleting the posts."
(atomic bomb test footage)

It was a different time. Hopefully things improve.

 

[Blue Of Mind]

(Let me preface my comment that I do not support any lewd garbage and do not approve of underage material either explicit or implied.)

This is all making me feel old and jaded. I hear controversy over something "disgusting" and "shocking." I brace myself, but then I find out it's lolicon trash. I'm like, "Really?" (looks around), "This is what ruffles people's feathers these days? When I think of something shocking from the old days of the internet I think of something like... (goes quiet, gets a far-off stare and starts having war flashbacks)."

War Flashbacks

"What has been seen cannot be unseen."
(gunfire in the distance)
"I need some eye-bleach."
(artillery montage)
"[post deleted] mod comment: post your g*** and v*** sht somewhere else!"
(bombs falling out of planes)
"^Don't click the above link if you value your sanity."
(wounded being carried out on stretchers)
"Here's a new torrent file with all the NSFW material removed."
(plane dive-bombs through a hail of tracer fire)
"Make sure you have a banner-ad blocker enabled before going to that site."
(gas mask drills in the trenches)
"Sticky Post: Let me remind everyone of the rules. The old site was subject to an FBI takedown because someone posted stuff that got flagged even though we kept banning them and deleting the posts."
(atomic bomb test footage)

It was a different time. Hopefully things improve.

I think we now live in a period on both the internet and within the anime fandom where people have become a lot more sensitive to issues like loli/shota, gore, etc., speaking as someone who can still remember the old stereotype of all anime being hyper-violent and sexual, to the point Mystery Science Theatre 3000 of all shows was making jokes about it. With both the internet and anime going more mainstream, we've been getting more so-called "normies" enter internet and anime culture, and inevitably there has been a stronger pushback against problematic content in general, not just Fee within the vocal synth fandom. So I think the negative reactions (including from me) on here are reflective of wider cultural changes online and within fandom spaces.

 

[Mika]

Oh boy, there I go and see this thread and think to myself "Oh, Fee, what a cute name! That's german for fairy!" but then I keep reading and. Oh god. This is just. Ew. And I'm getting really, really tired of all of these sexualized characters. But, you know, after reading all this I kinda realized why we never noticed that some of the western characters are.. questionable too. It's because, sadly, western media does the same with cartoons and real people. I mean, just think about Britney Spears, ...Baby One More Time released when she was 16 and have you seen the video?? Yeah. It's bad. The song released in 1998 (god that's when I was born, shit) and we still deal with this stuff. In Japan it's just even worse because they not only sexualize teens, but with the moe stuff they sexualize children so young you could think they're toddlers. But this is not just a problem in Japan, it's a problem almost everywhere and seeing a company now doing this so openly and blatantly for money makes me want to vomit. This could be just the start of something really, really horrible and I don't want to imagine how much worse it could get.

I think this comes down to Japan's age of consent of 13 so to them they don't see it as underage.

This may be part of it, but consent laws that are set as low as in Japan tend to be more nuanced than just that one number. I mean, if just the consent law being like this lead to that mindset, why aren't German people just as crazy about "sexy children" with our age of consent being 14? Anime is still seen as weird perverted stuff here by most people because of all the moe shit and people will distance themselves from you if they don't understand that not all anime is.. that. This has to do way more with how it's handled and where to set a line of what is okay and what not to portray in media, in my opinion.

Age of Consent Laws Japan and Germany

Japan, source
"At 13, Japan's base age of consent is the lowest of any developed country. However, many prefectures also have local "corruption of minors" or "obscenity statutes" (淫行条例) which raise the de-facto age of consent to 16-18, unless they are in a "sincere romantic relationship", usually determined by parental consent. For example, the effective age of consent in Tokyo by local statute is 18. The age of marriage is 16 for girls and 18 for boys with parental permission, and 20 otherwise (as stated in " ﾅｽ邃｢窶慊ｶ窶｢ﾅｸﾅｽﾆ停?邸", the Child Welfare Act of Japan."

Germany, source
Not really in the mood to translate all of it, be free to do so to confirm what I say is right, but from 14 onwards you are allowed to have sexual activity with people up to the age of 16 and from 16 onwards you are allowed to have sexual activity with people up to the age of 18. There are many laws between that to still protect the wellbeing of the underage/younger person, even if theroretically they are of the age of consent. Very complicated and nuanced, but basically just "let teens make their first moves and grow up , including sexually, without them being endangered."

 

[Scarlet Illusion]

Thank you for keeping things civil, everyone!

 

[sketchesofpayne]

I think we now live in a period on both the internet and within the anime fandom where people have become a lot more sensitive to issues like loli/shota, gore, etc., speaking as someone who can still remember the old stereotype of all anime being hyper-violent and sexual, to the point Mystery Science Theatre 3000 of all shows was making jokes about it. With both the internet and anime going more mainstream, we've been getting more so-called "normies" enter internet and anime culture, and inevitably there has been a stronger pushback against problematic content in general, not just Fee within the vocal synth fandom. So I think the negative reactions (including from me) on here are reflective of wider cultural changes online and within fandom spaces.

I think you're right. It's a good thing. It was such a long, gradual change that I feel like I didn't even notice it until recently.